rose_griffes | BSG: a long-winded defense of Dee and her non-cheating dating habits

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BSG: a long-winded defense of Dee and her non-cheating dating habits

Instead of doing useful stuff that I should accomplish, I'm typing. This is all the fault of Battlestar Galactica. I have thoughts about Anastasia Dualla, dating and "cheating." I'm going to share them ~~whether you like it or not~~.

One thing that never fails to surprise me is how often I see Dee accused of cheating on Billy Keikeya. People who dislike Dee have certainly said it many times, but lots of others (even Dee fans!) have said it as well.

I perceive it as a case of different mindsets about dating and a failure to communicate. Raise your hand if you've ever been in a dating relationship where one of the people involved thought it was more serious than the other. (I'm envisioning being surrounded by a sea of upraised hands right now.)

First let me say that I haven't rewatched the pertinent episodes recently, so I'm going by memory here. Hey, it's almost two seasons of brief glimpses of those two at random moments. Too much work!

We know Billy and Dee dated. What we didn't see was a scene in which they discussed "being exclusive" as a couple. That's the best term I can think of. Feels a bit weird, but I'm not sure how else to word this.

Dee came to Galactica from a religious culture that included a strong distrust of the other colonies, given that her home planet is Sagitarron. So her first exposure to a predominantly non-religious culture would have been the military. Dating within the military would involve an entirely different set of rules from what she learned before. Dee would probably have assumed that these dating customs were more applicable to life in general (away from Sagitarron) than what she knew before, since her home world was considered backwards by the other colonies.

What would dating customs be like aboard a military vessel? Probably fairly liberal, with little motivation to get into serious relationships without discussing it first. (Possibly Dee had her own heart broken a time or two while learning the new rules.)

Then the worlds ended, but that didn't necessarily put an end to people's cultural expectations and experiences.

Billy assumed that because he had serious feelings about Dee, she felt the same way. Dee may well have felt like their relationship was great, but possibly without feeling any obligation toward Billy just because they had dated for a while. How long was it? There's no exact timeline, but around 200-250 days is my best guess using the Battlestar Wiki season two timeline. They probably didn't see each other often, considering that they lived and worked on separate ships.

Here's the dialogue from Billy's final episode. He's already proposed and Dee turned him down, then he sees her at a bar with Lee.

Billy: I thought if anything, we were honest with each other. But you knew you were gonna be here with him today, and you let me propose to you.

Dualla: I didn't--

Billy: I know that giving you that ring was stupid. That's fine. And maybe this wasn't gonna work out between us. But this...you should've told me about this.

He thinks she should have told her that she was starting something (undefined at this point) with Lee. Perhaps she should have. This does NOT mean that Dualla was cheating on Billy by seeing Lee. It just means that she had different expectations than Billy did, and neither of them had verbalized enough to reveal those different expectations.

Was Billy upset? Did he have a broken heart? Well... yeah. That happens in dating. It still doesn't mean that Dee was cheating.

Also, I really dislike his phrasing: you let me propose to you. I'm willing to let it slide, considering his emotional state, but I hope that wasn't a pattern for Billy--blaming women who "let" him feel embarassed. Of course, we'll never know, since he was killed moments later.

Okay! I'd better stop here before I delve into Dee's relationship with Lee and start ranting about the extended cut of "Unfinished Business" and how it's not canon because I say so and because I hate it so very much. (I didn't like the aired version of "Unfinished Business" much either, but I don't have the BURNING FIERY HATRED for it that I reserve for UBEX. And that hatred is almost exclusively for the cut scene with Dee and Lee after he proposes. BLEURGH. I am SO GLAD I don't feel any obligation to accept that as part of Dee's characterization.)

sorry, got a bit capslocky at the end

Huh, it's been a while since I made a poll. Must remedy that soon.

So what do you think? Am I forgetting some conversation in which Billy and Dee discussed their adorably competent theoretical children? Do you think Dee was cheating on Billy when she started seeing Lee?

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Can I just say that I agree with (almost) every word in this post. I just never got how Dee could possibly be seen as cheating on Billy, because she went on a date with Lee. Yeah, maybe not the smartest thing she ever did and maybe she should have said something to Billy, but then she and Billy could maybe have been better at communicating with each other before that and.... but I just don't see how she could be cheating on him. To me the way it was set up actually just made her even more human and likeable as a character.

(I liked the idea of Dee and Lee, they made sense to me at the time and I thought they had chemistry, but it was handled abysmally by the writers. Don't get me started on UB in general or the proposal. I honestly hated that -- so much so that I've never watched UBEX nor any deleted scenes from the episode.)

I liked Dee from the very beginning and I grew to love her. I'd have loved for her to have had better story lines and I actively resent that she ended up largely being defined by her relationships with the men in her life (the writes did her wrong, they really did), but what I really can't stand is the way large parts of fandom relate to her.

Woah, look at me talking about BSG again for the first time in ages. I'm not sure I made much sense, but I basically wanted to let you know that I really appreciate this post and your point of view.

I just never got how Dee could possibly be seen as cheating on Billy, because she went on a date with Lee. Yeah, maybe not the smartest thing she ever did and maybe she should have said something to Billy, but then she and Billy could maybe have been better at communicating with each other before that and.... but I just don't see how she could be cheating on him.

One thing I said in the comments on LJ was that bad communication doesn't equal cheating. I'm not sure why so many fans of the show make that assumption. It's genuinely irritating to me.

Don't get me started on UB in general or the proposal. I honestly hated that -- so much so that I've never watched UBEX nor any deleted scenes from the episode.

I think this is a very wise choice. I rather wish I hadn't watched it, in fact.

I'm glad you appreciated the post. I found it rather cathartic to write.

I agree with this entire post! (Well, except that I like UBEX and Dee's characterization in it but I understand your feelings on that too.) I may be rather... judgey toward fans who go on and on about Dee "cheating" on Billy or breaking his heart. (She didn't do the former. She may have done the latter but she also had no obligation to see their relationship as seriously as he did.)

And the "you LET me propose to you" always drove me nuts too! It was such a shame that Billy annoyed me so much in his final episode, heh.

Edited 2011-02-26 04:27 (UTC)

It was such a shame that Billy annoyed me so much in his final episode, heh.

Yeah! Because I liked Billy and thought he made a good foil for Roslin.*

I get why people felt invested in the Dee/Billy relationship. ~~It kept Dee away from Lee.~~ They were sweet together and worked as a symbol of hope for humanity. But the idea that Dee has some special obligation to Billy is irritating.

*Which is NOT to say that I didn't appreciate Tory. (I just wanted to say that because so many people who complain about Tory start with "But Billy was better!" and that's annoying.)

Edited 2011-02-26 13:59 (UTC)

Re: ETA, Oh I never thought you were implying that at all! :) I enjoyed the Roslin/Billy dynamic too.

(My sad admission is that I may have turned all "meh" toward Billy because of all the Dee-bashing and Tory-bashing in his honor.)

Edited 2011-02-26 18:00 (UTC)

Yeah. Annoying that I feel a weird resentment about Billy because of the cries of how Tory wasn't as good. Aie.

Not cheating? I dunno. They were dating. For a while. And he proposed. She could have told him she was interested in someone else. So much so that she had a date that very night. If I was dating someone and loved them so much that I proposed, I'd like a "DB, sorry, but I have a date with someone else. Tonight. So I guess no on the proposal." Is it cheating for this person to go on a date? Depends on what we had decided our relationship was. Still it wasn't good form. Not the date. Dee could date if they weren't serious. But once he proposed, a heads-up would have been nice. It didn't feel completely honest. I think they were exclusive, at least Billy thought so. Dee's smart. She knew that and the proposal gave it away. Why didn't she just tell him? Cheating? Maybe not. Honest? No way.

Nah, it's not Dee's fault he proposed. Billy took a chance. You win some, you lose some.

The UBEX scene is killer but it's always been the sad canon in my head just brought to life. I wish I hadn't seen it but there it is. I remember Dee outside the pilots' bunkroom while Kara and Lee talked, I remember her voice in Taking a Break when she said, "That I could have you just as long as you and Kara would let me", her face when Lee goes to meet the raptor. She knew. She knew and knew and married him (and stay married to him for a while knowing)anyway.

I have to finish my vid on Dee someday. Viidds!

I'm curious, if you don't accept UBEX as canon, then why do you think Dee married him? Do you think that she didn't really understand his feelings for Kara?

Edited 2011-02-26 05:04 (UTC)

Billy may have had the expectation that they were exclusive but clearly Dee didn't. If he wanted to be exclusive, he should have said something before. Otherwise who Dee did or didn't date really wasn't his business.

Could Dee have told Billy she was interested in someone else before he proposed? Yeah, sure. Would have been nice. I don't think she was being dishonest by not telling Billy anything, though. Hard to know how much she knew about his feelings; she didn't get to see him every day and they were running for their lives. If I'm going to dole out blame for the misunderstanding, they both get a portion of it.

Should she have told him after he proposed? SHE WASN'T EXPECTING IT. The proposal obviously surprised her, and refusing his proposal was about all she could manage.

Billy knew he was moving fast anyway. ~~And RDM was setting up Billy's death to be as sad as possible.~~

Dee married Lee because she loved him and was optimistic about the future. I do blame Lee for misleading her; proposing at that moment was QUITE POSSIBLY THE STUPIDEST THING LEE ADAMA EVER DID. Because if she was in love with him (she definitely was), and he comes along doing the 'sweep you off your feet with a loving kiss' thing and says "Marry me, my sweet, and we shall live happily ever after!" then, what else is she going to do?!

Did she know he had feelings for Kara in the past? Yup. Did she believe he had moved on? Yeah. Kara was mooning over some Pyramid player, she went and saved him and they seemed to have something going on. Lee never even went on a date with Kara. (And Dee would probably know if he had, because Dee knew everything.)

Oh dear. Now I'm in a "Lee Adama is stupid and I hate everything he ever did" mood.
*eyerolls at self*

eta: Ooops, I wasn't done. This is sort of in reply to you, but mostly a general thought I've been having. Dee was portrayed as someone who had a decent amount of sensitivity to other people's feelings, but there's a difference between that and being a mind reader. I worry that we as viewers apply our own understanding (with an omniscient POV and lots of visual and musical cues) to what the characters should know, when they're experiencing rather than viewing post-edit.

Basically this boils down to me saying, yes, Dee knew a lot about what other people felt, but she didn't know everything.

Apparently I have lots of *feelings* about this. It's sort of embarrassing how ranty it makes me. Believe me, the rantiness isn't directed toward you.

Edited 2011-02-26 15:00 (UTC)

If he wanted to be exclusive, he should have said something before. Otherwise who Dee did or didn't date really wasn't his business.
We don't know that he didn't. That's the thing. What if they had been exclusive? Just because we didn't see the conversation, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Could Dee have told Billy she was interested in someone else before he proposed?
I wasn't saying that. I meant it would have been nice after the proposal. Even surprised, she had a date that very night. Even surprised it still doesn't feel as honest as it could be to me.

proposing at that moment was QUITE POSSIBLY THE STUPIDEST THING LEE ADAMA EVER DID.
*chuckles* I can not disagree with this. Oh, my poor kids. Poor choices about romance was their forte, unfortunately.

Did she know he had feelings for Kara in the past? Yup. Did she believe he had moved on? Yeah.
Then I'm confused. Why were you mad that they showed these very feelings in UBEX? Are you mad at the show for showing Dee's feelings or are you mad at Lee for proposing? I'm confused.

I don't blame Dee at all for accepting Lee's proposal. He asked and she went in eyes open. I understood her reasons. It was the end of the world and she wanted some happiness for a little while.

I think they were both short-sighted but they were young and people make mistakes sometimes.

Dee knew a lot about what other people felt, but she didn't know everything.
Nope, she didn't. But I think she definitely knew about Billy's feelings after he proposed. Maybe she was going to tell him later. To me it's still not the best decision she made but I didn't vilify her for it. Dee was so very young and everyone on the show made mistakes.

I went in with my rant-proof slicker on, so I knew you weren't ranting at me. :-) With this stuff people have different opinions. I can hold Dee (and Lee) responsible for their poor choices without hating either of them. There are two opinions. One is that she was simply surprised and was going to tell him later. Another is that she was going to go out with Lee and see how that went and then talk to Billy. In one case, she's innocent and circumstances got ahead of her. In the second, she's at the least, not completely honest with the guy she was dating. I can find love for Dee, no matter which case it was. We'll never really know which.

(deleted comment)

It does make sense. If you don't like Dee, then it's easy to blame her for what's going on. Also if one liked her and thought her a complete innocent, then this might feel . . . a betrayal of sorts. Not to me. I was surprised to find her involved in stealing the election. Except I agreed that Baltar shouldn't have been president. I found myself really understanding Dee's choices. And honestly, why does Lee get a pass for cheating with Kara? None of these people were completely innocent by the end and I still loved them.

Billy seemed a complete innocent but that's easy for him because he died before a lot of things went to hell in a handbasket.

I went in with my rant-proof slicker on, so I knew you weren't ranting at me. :-)

*giggles* Good thing. I'm not sure how that comment comes across but inside I was feeling... like a self-righteous Dee advocate, I guess. Torch raised high in the air! Because a lot of the reactions in fandom in general (well, a lot of the annoying reactions) I chalk up to the whole Nice Guy syndrome our culture has.

Women owe the Nice Guy love/affection/whatever because he's a Nice Guy. It's a disservice to women (makes us a prize) and it's a disservice to men (when some try being nice and don't get the reward it can lead to anger). So the words owe and obligation tend to bother me, especially when it's obviously connected to that culture: like the idea that Dee has an obligation to stay with Billy because he was nice to her. (Again, not by you. I'm just describing why the whole scenario bothers me.)

And that goes hand in hand with what Chaila was saying, I think. The general fandom interpretation of what we know tends to go along those lines, with Billy as the Nice Guy who deserves something just for being nice.

Anyway!

I meant it would have been nice after the proposal. Even surprised, she had a date that very night. Even surprised it still doesn't feel as honest as it could be to me.

But it's hard to have the right response when you're taken by surprise like that. At least for me, anyway. And I think a bit of that goes back to the Nice Guy thing. I can remember feeling guilty and obligated in some way when I learned that someone liked me more than I liked him. (This happened more than once.) So it made me feel even more awkward and unsure of the right thing to say.

That's probably why I'm pretty hardcore about the idea that Dee doesn't owe Billy anything just because he had feelings for her. Heading in the other direction eventually leads to crossing that line into "She owes him because he's a Nice Guy." And I'm tired of that.

I was feeling... like a self-righteous Dee advocate, I guess. Torch raised high in the air! Because a lot of the reactions in fandom in general (well, a lot of the annoying reactions) I chalk up to the whole Nice Guy syndrome our culture has.
Girl, you are advocating to the choir. :-) You know I love Dee. But I love her less than my faves so I can see her either way and still love her.

Billy as the Nice Guy who deserves something just for being nice.
I was saying earlier that it was easy for Billy to be the Nice Guy before everything started going down. Eventually Billy would have had to make some difficult choices. But he died before we could see what those choices might have been.

Dee didn't 'owe' Billy anything; it would have been nice of her to give him a heads-up so his feelings didn't get hurt. But it would have been nice of him to give her a heads-up before springing a proposal on her. But hey, everyone did what they felt they had to at the time.

I can remember feeling guilty and obligated in some way when I learned that someone liked me more than I liked him. (This happened more than once.)
Affection and love are there or they aren't. One can't force it. The best thing to do is to be honest if it's not there. If a Nice Guy is really that nice he would respect someone being honest with him.

Dee did deserve someone who loved just her. She also deserved to be able to return that love to that person. Billy wasn't the one. Neither was Lee. Sadly, I don't think she ever found that love that she really wanted and deserved. :-(

(This makes me want to read more Dee/Sam. Or more of

lls_mutant's world where Narcho is in love with Dee. They are surprisingly sweet together in that world.)

Affection and love are there or they aren't. One can't force it. The best thing to do is to be honest if it's not there. If a Nice Guy is really that nice he would respect someone being honest with him.

Oh, absolutely. My own experiences with the weird guilt and obligation (from someone else having more feelings for me than I did for him) happened when I was fairly young; those feelings were a reflection of that Nice Guy culture. When I got a bit older and had some perspective, I understood that I couldn't control someone else, nor was I obligated because they had feelings. (And I experienced it from the other side, too, where I had more feelings for someone than he had for me. It's rather eye-opening.)

(deleted comment)

But the point is, Dee didn't want "better", she wanted (and thought) she deserved Lee.

sometimes it's hard not to take lines like that as hints about what the writers thought
*sigh* Yes. I was talking upthread about the Nice Guy syndrome and how prevalent it is. Possibly some of the writers really did feel like Dee owed him something, and that would make me sad. (Especially since BSG generally did pretty good at avoiding Nice Guy syndrome most of the time.)

I don't really see what Dee did as cheating I think she figured it was over when she turned down the proposal and that Billy is just not good at taking hints.

I do feel badly for both of them--Billy and Dee. And I think there was a lack of communication before the proposal, but that still doesn't make Dee's interest in Lee a form of cheating.

Thanks for commenting!

I do think it would have been nice for her to have mentioned the Lee thing? Because she did seem to have some sort of weird guilt-thing over it during the sexy tension scene on the training mat when Billy showed up.

(and, for context, earlier in season two, during VoD, there was a whole thing where Dee and Billy were sort of at odds, Billy was all "well, um, we can break up, then" and Dee suddenly changed her mind and was all "no, no, kiss me, you fool"--so there is a sort of frustrating feeling that their signals really are crossed a lot)

BUT. BUT.

I'm perfectly ok with her saying nothing, because they're in different places and it makes her human.

Also. Dee didn't let Billy do anything, so he can shove it--even if he was hurting and just realizing that she meant what she'd said.

Yeah, I do think both Dee and Billy took some things for granted that they should have discussed before his proposal/her date with Lee. But... yes, it's very human (for both of them). People make mistakes in dating.

The cheating label, though--that's way too harsh for this situation. (Hence my irritation finally leading to a post.) Bad communication =/= cheating.

I think Dee could have handled the situation better, but I also think that everyone has dating situations they could have handled better ~~and it wasn't Dee's fault that Paul Campbell was leaving~~. She goofed up a bit, but I don't understand the urge to nail her to the cross for it.

But yeah, I don't think she cheated on Billy with Lee. For one, I don't think there was much physical contact. I think Dee probably was starting to figure out she wanted something besides Billy, but then he proposed to her. (To RDM's credit, I am forced to believe that Billy was meant to look irrational when he said "you let me propose", because Dee was truly shocked.)

Billy/Dee was my original OTP for the show, and I was sorry to see them go, but I blame Paul Campbell for leaving, not Dee for getting involved with a character who was sticking around ;) (I don't really like her being with Lee, but that's because the writers couldn't be bothered to do anything interesting with her after New Caprica :P )

I think Dee probably was starting to figure out she wanted something besides Billy, but then he proposed to her.

Yup. Part of my own theory is that she was very interested, but that interest waned over time, and since they hadn't talked about being serious as a couple, she took a bit of an easy way out. Still not cheating, though.

I don't really like her being with Lee, but that's because the writers couldn't be bothered to do anything interesting with her after New Caprica :P

I agree; it's not so much the Dee/Lee relationship that bothers me, it's that after starting a character arc with her, they failed to follow through. (I don't have a problem with the idea of Dee and Lee as partners, but there could have been so much more done with them ~~other than the Quadrangle of Doom~~.)

She knew what Billy wanted but she was hanging out for Apollo. This is called hedging your bets. Its unforgivable not because she cheated but because she used him as a boytoy while pining for another man.

And you know that Dee knew what Billy wanted... how exactly? Psychic connection to Dee? She couldn't possibly have been avoiding thinking about it, or oblivious to Billy's feelings, or interpreting his feelings through the lens of her own (less strong) feelings?

You're putting the worst possible spin on Dee's actions, and there's nothing to say that your interpretation is any more solid than mine. So ask yourself: WHY do you want Dee to be culpable in some way?

Also, unforgivable? Really? Even if I went with the idea that Dee was "hedging her bets", the idea that it's unforgivable is pretty extreme.

Lee was guilty of emotional infidelity, if not actual infidelity, while married to Dee, but I don't see "unforgivable" being used to describe him.

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BSG: a long-winded defense of Dee and her non-cheating dating habits

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