rose_griffes (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
rose_griffes) wrote2007-07-18 05:14 pm
rose_griffes) wrote2007-07-18 05:14 pm
Leoben and mythology: essay
I wrote an essay! About Leoben! I know you're all shocked. ;-) I started writing this back in February. I make no claims to original thought; in fact, I'm hoping I found most of the links to the original brilliant ideas, but if I missed any, let me know. Many thanks to ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
daybreak777 for looking over two different drafts; her suggestions helped a lot.
I tried to be objective, but I'm definitely a Leoben apologist. Spoilers from mini-series through season three finale.
F&B = Flesh and Bone, the season 1 episode in which Kara interrogated and tortured Leoben.
First a little personal history:
When I was young I was a nerdy bookworm. I used to read the M encyclopedia because there was a huge section on mythology in which many of the Greek and Roman myths were retold. In college I did some reading of Native American myths on my own. I've been thinking about how Leoben fits some of the mythological and literary prototypes. This line of thought started when someone on TWoP compared Leoben to Puck. (Found the comment--it's here, by Paramitch.)
So, on to Leoben now.
I mythical characteristics and powers
SUPERHUMAN STRENGTH: Even with the radiation at Ragnar Station in the mini-series Leoben came close to beating William Adama in a fight. (Yeah, he couldn't actually beat him because then the series would be mostly Adama-less and sad.) In F&B he breaks the handcuffs and shackles binding him, throwing the table to the side and holding Kara against the door while keeping it closed.
IMMORTALITY, provided his "spirit" can make it to be downloaded.
He has VISIONS of some kind, and unusual knowledge. From what he says he can see both the past and the future. In F&B he tells Kara about her abusive childhood. He also makes this statement: "You're going to find Kobol, birthplace of us all. Kobol will lead you to Earth." As a language nerd I'm very curious if the French or Spanish translations used the singular or plural form of you in the 'finding Kobol' part of the sentence. The fleet found Kobol; Kara's a part of the fleet. Kara did go to Kobol after retrieving the Arrow of Apollo, an artifact that helps point the way to Earth.
Leoben also knows Kara's religious side; he correctly identifies the goddesses to whom she prays. He understands that she believes she's cursed or unworthy in some way, and that it connects to the abuse from her mother.
MANIPULATION: He recognizes weaknesses and uses them. He's a convincing liar and master manipulator. When he first met Kara in F&B he lied about the existence of a nuclear warhead, presumably to spend more time with her. It worked. With Laura Roslin he admits he lied to Kara then slips in a lie about Adama being a cylon.
During the Cylon occupation of New Caprica Leoben presented Kacey to Kara as her own half-cylon daughter. It's a lie designed to get past massive barriers in Kara's psyche--and it works, to a certain degree. I likenatalexx's description of this in her fic When He Followed Her Home--that he did it to change the pattern.
APPEAR IN OTHERS' DREAMS: Can he insert himself into others' dreams? When I first watched F&B my theory was that Roslin's dreams were induced by chamalla. However, Roslin's dream was sympathetic to Leoben, whom she had never met. She was running from what appeared to be a group of the fleet's military police. Why would she need to run from them? Leoben, on the other hand, would have every reason to run from them. Also, his presence in the dream was gentle; that's surprising since it's a human's dream about a cylon. Because of that dream Roslin had Leoben interrogated, which led him to meeting Kara in person. This gave him time to learn more about them. It also led to nothing good for the fleet--being scattered and more vulnerable to attack while waiting to find the warhead.
He appears in a second dream to Roslin ("I have something to tell you") and she goes to meet him in person. He plants the idea that Adama is a cylon--those suspicions of William Adama in "Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down" widened the rift between the two. (The first time I saw the idea that Leoben could influence dreams was in the fic The Wide Expanses.) He also gets himself airlocked right away. His purposes were accomplished and he had no more reason to stay. From outtakes in season three (Caprica Six on Galactica), we know that this particular Leoben did get downloaded.
This is where I should present my grand theory about who/what paint!Leoben is, but... I got nothin'.
Okay, I do have some ideas:
1) the producers saw how hot CKR and Katee Sackhoff are onscreen together so they wrote something to show more hotness. The scene was sexy but gratuitous.
2) paint!Leoben comes from Kara's damaged psyche--she's been obsessing about the mandala, it's not surprising that Leoben would be in her thoughts as well.
3) The Leoben we know from before is inserting himself into Kara's dreams.
4)pataka02 once argued that paint!Leoben and head!Leoben are the same--in that scene he's trying to keep her from "covering up" or avoiding her destiny.
That brings up the question of head!Leoben. Oy, all of these head!characters are giving me a headache. I'll put them in the next section.
Back to regular Leoben for a moment to wrap up this section. He has a lot of similarities to the Gods in his powers. They had immortality (except when they got killed--heh). Super strength, prophetic visions... Morpheus was the Greek God of dreams, and he "sends images of humans in dreams or visions" (according to Ovid). As for manipulation, where to start? Zeus had many tricks and disguises as he wooed or raped humans and nymphs and then tried to cover these affairs from his wife Hera. He even had to use trickery to get Hera to marry him--she'd spurned him so he disguised himself as a bird. After she picked him up he returned to his own form and impregnated her, so she married him. (Some versions say that he raped her, others that he persuaded her to have sex after promising to marry her.)
II his desires and goals
This is where things get fuzzy. What does Leoben want? He believes he’s human, but better. He talks about experiencing hunger as part of being human, and claims to have a soul in F&B. He called himself "a patient man" in Precipice. So he doesn't want to be like the humans, who are weak and sinful, but wants to be recognized as having a soul.
From what he says about his belief in the one true Cylon God, I'm guessing that he wants to have children. The other cylons take that commandment to multiply very seriously, to the point of hooking up human females to machines in a failed attempt at reproduction.
Does he want Kara's love? He says that he's seen a vision of her embracing him and telling him that she loves him. Is her love his true objective or a part of something larger--her destiny or his or the future of all cylons? If Kara were to express love for him (without coercion) what would that really mean?
He wants Kara to fulfill her destiny. In F&B he talks about her destiny having already begun. That destiny may be to show the way to Earth.
His agenda doesn't appear to be the death of humanity. When a Cavil model was planning to allow/bring about the destruction of the remaining humans on the algae planet Leoben stated that it was an unacceptable risk. He was protective. (Was that for the people still on the planet or just for Kara? Who knows?)
Head!Leoben appears to have an entirely different agenda. (See, I said I'd get back to this.) Baltar's head!Six has called herself an angel from God. I'm not counting out the idea that she's part of his own messed-up mind, though. It's hard to say whether or not her/its actions have been for the good of the Cylons or Baltar or humanity or none of the above. Caprica-Six has her head!Baltar, who seems to represent a collective human conscience. He approves when she shows compassion and works for the benefit of humans. Head!Leoben is a lot more angelic than head!Six or head!Baltar, in my opinion. He's completely lacking in sarcasm, he has some lesson for Kara to learn which appears to be for the benefit of both Kara and humanity, and he has some really weird non-human ideas about child abuse being a message... whatever. I guess we'll find out in season four if head!Leoben was really helpful to Kara or not. He could be a part of Kara's own mind, but that idea seems less plausible than with the other head!entities.
III weaknesses
EXTREMIST: Whatever Leoben wants from Kara, he goes to extremes to achieve his purposes. The torture he allows Kara to inflict in F&B, Kara's captivity during the Occupation, kidnapping a child--nothing is done with moderation.
He TRICKS HIMSELF with his actions. Before the kiss with Kara I'm certain he knew exactly what was going to happen after it, but his reaction to it was so strong—he was smiling, saying he would never forget that moment. It's as if he's forgotten that he demanded the kiss, and the price to pay is another dead body.
He THINKS HE CAN FIX KARA. Kara's arguably one of the most damaged, flawed characters on the show. Leoben knows that her needs--knows the reasons behind them better than any of the humans. Arguably those flaws are what attract him to her. But he can't be the one to fix her and he doesn't understand that. She can't be fixed by a machine, even one who (thinks he) loves her. Really, she can only fix herself, when it comes down to the basics, and Leoben will never understand that.
On the show Leoben has interacted with just two other humans--William Adama and Laura Roslin. Judging from his time with Adama in the mini-series he would be in favor of wiping out humanity; but the Leoben on the basestar in season three was protective. Does he believe he can fix other humans as well as Kara? That's one possible explanation for his change of attitude. Too bad we didn't get to see him talking with the other cylons during the occupation of New Caprica--that would have been interesting.
Leoben's love has done Kara more harm than good, in spite of his intentions. Those crazy cylons in love: Caprica Six, Leoben and Sharon are probably programmed to love, possibly toward that goal of reproduction or maybe for some deeper unknown reason. To paraphrase Laura Roslin, that love is real to them--but it doesn't mean it's not just a part of the cylon agenda.
The dynamics of Caprica Six and Gaius have some similarities to Leoben and Kara. CSix thinks she's in love with Baltar, a very flawed human. She pushes the "Love All Humans (to death)" agenda in order to be with Gaius again. The problem is she can't change Baltar. When they're engaged in polyamorous wackiness, Gaius betrays her for D'Anna because D'Anna has power, and he chooses that over love. Six can't make him be different, no matter how much she 'loves' him. In fact, her 'love' for Gaius has nearly been the ruin of him--only his monstrous ego has saved him from insanity over the realization that he bears some responsibility for the destruction of most of humanity. (I'll stop the Baltar-bashing now. Heh.)
Returning to the Greek mythology: Apollo, son of Zeus, falls in love with Daphne--possibly because of an arrow from Eros (programming). Daphne doesn't return his love and flees; Apollo chases her, she asks for help from a river god and is turned into a laurel tree to save her from Apollo. End result: Apollo stays the same, Daphne pays the price. Zeus does this as well: he loves Io, Hera's jealous, so he turns Io into a cow. He falls for Danae, she gives birth to a son and is locked in a box with the baby and thrown into the ocean. (Don't worry, they both live.) Humans almost always pay a heavy price when loved by one of the Gods in Greek and Roman myth, but the Gods themselves stay the same.
IV end result
The Gods of Greek mythology fought each other, were jealous, loved, and even killed each other. They interacted with humans extensively but their ultimate fate (life or death) stayed within the group of the Gods. Cronus, for example, was told that his own children would overthrow him, so he swallowed them after birth. His wife tricked him into swallowing a stone in place of his sixth child, Zeus. When Zeus grew up he cut open Cronus to release his siblings and either killed his father or banished him to Tartarus (part of Hades).
As for the cylons, the Threes sought to know the identity of the final five cylons and they didn't follow the group directive to pull back all of the ships heading toward the algae planet. They were boxed because they went against the cylon collective will.
Leoben is not going to be judged or defeated by humans. If he meets a bad end, it will be at the hands of his fellow cylons. His actions are atrocious by human standards but he's not human.
On the subject of love, the Gods ultimately stayed with their own kind. Zeus cheated on Hera but always returned to her... and the human had to deal with the consequences.
Leoben has no true chance of love and happiness with Kara. Honestly, none of the cylons do. (Sorry, Sharon/Helo shippers.) Any relationship is terminally flawed from the beginning.
As for what will happen when Leoben fails to win Kara's love, it's anyone's guess. If I use the mythology examples as a guide, it's not going to be pleasant for Kara. I'm taking a more positive outlook, though, since she's a main character on the show and Leoben isn't. *g*
V why we love to watch
Leoben wants to be loved like the humans are loved. A part of me wants that for him, even as the rest of my mind acknowledges how truly awful it would be for Kara. When she killed him repeatedly during the occupation it was gruesome and funny and sad at all once. He was pathetic at the same time as he was frightening in his implacability.
One thing that's consistent in human nature is our enjoyment of seeing the heroes, the Gods, the larger-than-live characters, with foibles and weaknesses. We enjoy seeing them experience human trials--it gives them an appealing vulnerability. (Remember Spike in love with Buffy in season five?)
We are desirable as humans, even our flaws, to creatures greater than us. We have something the gods want; we're attractive to them for the very things that make us weak. What happens when a human loves an immortal? They have no true chance of long-term happiness. But it fascinates us, and the Romans, and the Greeks, and the Etruscans. (That's why so many Buffy fans loved Angel and hated Riley's character. How could Riley possibly compete with the mythic pair of Buffy/Angel?)
My personal conclusion: Leoben and Six are the two cylons who have the most mythic storylines on the show. They have that combination of godlike qualities and weaknesses, and they want something from the humans that they can never really have. Both are high on my list of favorite characters (and they're definitely my favorite cylons).daybreak777 once wrote that I like Leoben because he's doomed. It's not a bad assessment. And since the role of Leoben is played by CKR, he has this sensual pull onscreen. Guh. *wipes drool from keyboard* I think I'd have a lot less sympathy for Leoben if CKR was less attractive. The end.
daybreak777 for looking over two different drafts; her suggestions helped a lot.I tried to be objective, but I'm definitely a Leoben apologist. Spoilers from mini-series through season three finale.
F&B = Flesh and Bone, the season 1 episode in which Kara interrogated and tortured Leoben.
First a little personal history:
When I was young I was a nerdy bookworm. I used to read the M encyclopedia because there was a huge section on mythology in which many of the Greek and Roman myths were retold. In college I did some reading of Native American myths on my own. I've been thinking about how Leoben fits some of the mythological and literary prototypes. This line of thought started when someone on TWoP compared Leoben to Puck. (Found the comment--it's here, by Paramitch.)
So, on to Leoben now.
I mythical characteristics and powers
SUPERHUMAN STRENGTH: Even with the radiation at Ragnar Station in the mini-series Leoben came close to beating William Adama in a fight. (Yeah, he couldn't actually beat him because then the series would be mostly Adama-less and sad.) In F&B he breaks the handcuffs and shackles binding him, throwing the table to the side and holding Kara against the door while keeping it closed.
IMMORTALITY, provided his "spirit" can make it to be downloaded.
He has VISIONS of some kind, and unusual knowledge. From what he says he can see both the past and the future. In F&B he tells Kara about her abusive childhood. He also makes this statement: "You're going to find Kobol, birthplace of us all. Kobol will lead you to Earth." As a language nerd I'm very curious if the French or Spanish translations used the singular or plural form of you in the 'finding Kobol' part of the sentence. The fleet found Kobol; Kara's a part of the fleet. Kara did go to Kobol after retrieving the Arrow of Apollo, an artifact that helps point the way to Earth.
Leoben also knows Kara's religious side; he correctly identifies the goddesses to whom she prays. He understands that she believes she's cursed or unworthy in some way, and that it connects to the abuse from her mother.
MANIPULATION: He recognizes weaknesses and uses them. He's a convincing liar and master manipulator. When he first met Kara in F&B he lied about the existence of a nuclear warhead, presumably to spend more time with her. It worked. With Laura Roslin he admits he lied to Kara then slips in a lie about Adama being a cylon.
During the Cylon occupation of New Caprica Leoben presented Kacey to Kara as her own half-cylon daughter. It's a lie designed to get past massive barriers in Kara's psyche--and it works, to a certain degree. I like
natalexx's description of this in her fic When He Followed Her Home--that he did it to change the pattern.APPEAR IN OTHERS' DREAMS: Can he insert himself into others' dreams? When I first watched F&B my theory was that Roslin's dreams were induced by chamalla. However, Roslin's dream was sympathetic to Leoben, whom she had never met. She was running from what appeared to be a group of the fleet's military police. Why would she need to run from them? Leoben, on the other hand, would have every reason to run from them. Also, his presence in the dream was gentle; that's surprising since it's a human's dream about a cylon. Because of that dream Roslin had Leoben interrogated, which led him to meeting Kara in person. This gave him time to learn more about them. It also led to nothing good for the fleet--being scattered and more vulnerable to attack while waiting to find the warhead.
He appears in a second dream to Roslin ("I have something to tell you") and she goes to meet him in person. He plants the idea that Adama is a cylon--those suspicions of William Adama in "Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down" widened the rift between the two. (The first time I saw the idea that Leoben could influence dreams was in the fic The Wide Expanses.) He also gets himself airlocked right away. His purposes were accomplished and he had no more reason to stay. From outtakes in season three (Caprica Six on Galactica), we know that this particular Leoben did get downloaded.
This is where I should present my grand theory about who/what paint!Leoben is, but... I got nothin'.
Okay, I do have some ideas:
1) the producers saw how hot CKR and Katee Sackhoff are onscreen together so they wrote something to show more hotness. The scene was sexy but gratuitous.
2) paint!Leoben comes from Kara's damaged psyche--she's been obsessing about the mandala, it's not surprising that Leoben would be in her thoughts as well.
3) The Leoben we know from before is inserting himself into Kara's dreams.
4)
pataka02 once argued that paint!Leoben and head!Leoben are the same--in that scene he's trying to keep her from "covering up" or avoiding her destiny. That brings up the question of head!Leoben. Oy, all of these head!characters are giving me a headache. I'll put them in the next section.
Back to regular Leoben for a moment to wrap up this section. He has a lot of similarities to the Gods in his powers. They had immortality (except when they got killed--heh). Super strength, prophetic visions... Morpheus was the Greek God of dreams, and he "sends images of humans in dreams or visions" (according to Ovid). As for manipulation, where to start? Zeus had many tricks and disguises as he wooed or raped humans and nymphs and then tried to cover these affairs from his wife Hera. He even had to use trickery to get Hera to marry him--she'd spurned him so he disguised himself as a bird. After she picked him up he returned to his own form and impregnated her, so she married him. (Some versions say that he raped her, others that he persuaded her to have sex after promising to marry her.)
II his desires and goals
This is where things get fuzzy. What does Leoben want? He believes he’s human, but better. He talks about experiencing hunger as part of being human, and claims to have a soul in F&B. He called himself "a patient man" in Precipice. So he doesn't want to be like the humans, who are weak and sinful, but wants to be recognized as having a soul.
From what he says about his belief in the one true Cylon God, I'm guessing that he wants to have children. The other cylons take that commandment to multiply very seriously, to the point of hooking up human females to machines in a failed attempt at reproduction.
Does he want Kara's love? He says that he's seen a vision of her embracing him and telling him that she loves him. Is her love his true objective or a part of something larger--her destiny or his or the future of all cylons? If Kara were to express love for him (without coercion) what would that really mean?
He wants Kara to fulfill her destiny. In F&B he talks about her destiny having already begun. That destiny may be to show the way to Earth.
His agenda doesn't appear to be the death of humanity. When a Cavil model was planning to allow/bring about the destruction of the remaining humans on the algae planet Leoben stated that it was an unacceptable risk. He was protective. (Was that for the people still on the planet or just for Kara? Who knows?)
Head!Leoben appears to have an entirely different agenda. (See, I said I'd get back to this.) Baltar's head!Six has called herself an angel from God. I'm not counting out the idea that she's part of his own messed-up mind, though. It's hard to say whether or not her/its actions have been for the good of the Cylons or Baltar or humanity or none of the above. Caprica-Six has her head!Baltar, who seems to represent a collective human conscience. He approves when she shows compassion and works for the benefit of humans. Head!Leoben is a lot more angelic than head!Six or head!Baltar, in my opinion. He's completely lacking in sarcasm, he has some lesson for Kara to learn which appears to be for the benefit of both Kara and humanity, and he has some really weird non-human ideas about child abuse being a message... whatever. I guess we'll find out in season four if head!Leoben was really helpful to Kara or not. He could be a part of Kara's own mind, but that idea seems less plausible than with the other head!entities.
III weaknesses
EXTREMIST: Whatever Leoben wants from Kara, he goes to extremes to achieve his purposes. The torture he allows Kara to inflict in F&B, Kara's captivity during the Occupation, kidnapping a child--nothing is done with moderation.
He TRICKS HIMSELF with his actions. Before the kiss with Kara I'm certain he knew exactly what was going to happen after it, but his reaction to it was so strong—he was smiling, saying he would never forget that moment. It's as if he's forgotten that he demanded the kiss, and the price to pay is another dead body.
He THINKS HE CAN FIX KARA. Kara's arguably one of the most damaged, flawed characters on the show. Leoben knows that her needs--knows the reasons behind them better than any of the humans. Arguably those flaws are what attract him to her. But he can't be the one to fix her and he doesn't understand that. She can't be fixed by a machine, even one who (thinks he) loves her. Really, she can only fix herself, when it comes down to the basics, and Leoben will never understand that.
On the show Leoben has interacted with just two other humans--William Adama and Laura Roslin. Judging from his time with Adama in the mini-series he would be in favor of wiping out humanity; but the Leoben on the basestar in season three was protective. Does he believe he can fix other humans as well as Kara? That's one possible explanation for his change of attitude. Too bad we didn't get to see him talking with the other cylons during the occupation of New Caprica--that would have been interesting.
Leoben's love has done Kara more harm than good, in spite of his intentions. Those crazy cylons in love: Caprica Six, Leoben and Sharon are probably programmed to love, possibly toward that goal of reproduction or maybe for some deeper unknown reason. To paraphrase Laura Roslin, that love is real to them--but it doesn't mean it's not just a part of the cylon agenda.
The dynamics of Caprica Six and Gaius have some similarities to Leoben and Kara. CSix thinks she's in love with Baltar, a very flawed human. She pushes the "Love All Humans (to death)" agenda in order to be with Gaius again. The problem is she can't change Baltar. When they're engaged in polyamorous wackiness, Gaius betrays her for D'Anna because D'Anna has power, and he chooses that over love. Six can't make him be different, no matter how much she 'loves' him. In fact, her 'love' for Gaius has nearly been the ruin of him--only his monstrous ego has saved him from insanity over the realization that he bears some responsibility for the destruction of most of humanity. (I'll stop the Baltar-bashing now. Heh.)
Returning to the Greek mythology: Apollo, son of Zeus, falls in love with Daphne--possibly because of an arrow from Eros (programming). Daphne doesn't return his love and flees; Apollo chases her, she asks for help from a river god and is turned into a laurel tree to save her from Apollo. End result: Apollo stays the same, Daphne pays the price. Zeus does this as well: he loves Io, Hera's jealous, so he turns Io into a cow. He falls for Danae, she gives birth to a son and is locked in a box with the baby and thrown into the ocean. (Don't worry, they both live.) Humans almost always pay a heavy price when loved by one of the Gods in Greek and Roman myth, but the Gods themselves stay the same.
IV end result
The Gods of Greek mythology fought each other, were jealous, loved, and even killed each other. They interacted with humans extensively but their ultimate fate (life or death) stayed within the group of the Gods. Cronus, for example, was told that his own children would overthrow him, so he swallowed them after birth. His wife tricked him into swallowing a stone in place of his sixth child, Zeus. When Zeus grew up he cut open Cronus to release his siblings and either killed his father or banished him to Tartarus (part of Hades).
As for the cylons, the Threes sought to know the identity of the final five cylons and they didn't follow the group directive to pull back all of the ships heading toward the algae planet. They were boxed because they went against the cylon collective will.
Leoben is not going to be judged or defeated by humans. If he meets a bad end, it will be at the hands of his fellow cylons. His actions are atrocious by human standards but he's not human.
On the subject of love, the Gods ultimately stayed with their own kind. Zeus cheated on Hera but always returned to her... and the human had to deal with the consequences.
Leoben has no true chance of love and happiness with Kara. Honestly, none of the cylons do. (Sorry, Sharon/Helo shippers.) Any relationship is terminally flawed from the beginning.
As for what will happen when Leoben fails to win Kara's love, it's anyone's guess. If I use the mythology examples as a guide, it's not going to be pleasant for Kara. I'm taking a more positive outlook, though, since she's a main character on the show and Leoben isn't. *g*
V why we love to watch
Leoben wants to be loved like the humans are loved. A part of me wants that for him, even as the rest of my mind acknowledges how truly awful it would be for Kara. When she killed him repeatedly during the occupation it was gruesome and funny and sad at all once. He was pathetic at the same time as he was frightening in his implacability.
One thing that's consistent in human nature is our enjoyment of seeing the heroes, the Gods, the larger-than-live characters, with foibles and weaknesses. We enjoy seeing them experience human trials--it gives them an appealing vulnerability. (Remember Spike in love with Buffy in season five?)
We are desirable as humans, even our flaws, to creatures greater than us. We have something the gods want; we're attractive to them for the very things that make us weak. What happens when a human loves an immortal? They have no true chance of long-term happiness. But it fascinates us, and the Romans, and the Greeks, and the Etruscans. (That's why so many Buffy fans loved Angel and hated Riley's character. How could Riley possibly compete with the mythic pair of Buffy/Angel?)
My personal conclusion: Leoben and Six are the two cylons who have the most mythic storylines on the show. They have that combination of godlike qualities and weaknesses, and they want something from the humans that they can never really have. Both are high on my list of favorite characters (and they're definitely my favorite cylons).
daybreak777 once wrote that I like Leoben because he's doomed. It's not a bad assessment. And since the role of Leoben is played by CKR, he has this sensual pull onscreen. Guh. *wipes drool from keyboard* I think I'd have a lot less sympathy for Leoben if CKR was less attractive. The end.
no subject
did some reading of Native American myths on my own.
i was wondering if you remember anything about the Conoy tribe? i don't know anything about it except that it's the name of a tribe..
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i was wondering if you remember anything about the Conoy tribe?
No, that doesn't sound familiar. Hm, maybe I'll check it out.
no subject
I don't have much to say other than, Katee Sackhoff apparently said at a con recently, that they filmed the Maelstrom sex scene as a rape, which might explain the original intent, but not what ultimately ended up on the screen.
no subject
That's an interesting bit of information. If they had kept to that idea I'd say it was most likely the "real" Leoben manifesting in Kara's dreams. But that's definitely not what ended up onscreen, especially with the inserts of Kara writhing in her bunk. Wonder if they filmed those later?
Anyway, thanks for reading and commenting.
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Or not. Stupid lj.
http://canadiangirl-86.livejournal.com/234423.html
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Wow, they must've made some major changes in the editing room. Because yeah, not so much in the finished product.
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We enjoy seeing them experience human trials--it gives them an appealing vulnerability. (Remember Spike in love with Buffy in season five?)
OMG!YES! *luff*
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Hee! Spike-love. I laughed at your icon.
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actually it all really makes sense.
it would explain why I loved spike/buffy so much and why I love leoben/kara.
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I like comparing Leoben to the gods too. I don't know why the Cylons worry more me than the Olympian gods ever did. Probably because the Cylons were created by humans. They are like bad children gone astray. Straying into evil, mad that mom and dad really don't love them. They can never be real. Who is responsible for Cylon nature? The humans who programmed them? The individual Cylons like Cap and Boomer? The Cylon God?
I don't know if there are any answers. I don't think it will be the Cylons who decide Leoben's fate. He's so on a quest, I think one day he'll realize his nature and that he can't escape who he is. There is a time when you're on your own. No parents, no more blame. I think that's where Leoben and the Cylons need to go. They need to let the humans go. Not for the humans but for their own evolution. The Olympian gods trifled and tortured humans but in the end they stayed on Olympus. They had a place all their own.
Wow, I do tend to ramble. Still working this out in my head, I guess.
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Can a machine that's prorammed even be considered good or evil? Judging them by our standards Sharon is good, Cavil is evil, but they aren't acting by a conscience, they aren't choosing anything--they are what we made them. So I think that humans are ultimately responsible for their nature. Unless we believe that they can have souls, then we're the ones who bear the burden of their acts. Maybe that's why Helo and Admiral Adama are so willing to believe in Sharon's humanity, that she's worthy of trust--because then we (humans) don't have to shoulder the responsibility of the cylons' acts.
The Cylon God?
This is one of the things I find most fascinating and scary--that the cylons have developed a separate theology from their makers/programmers.
I don't think it will be the Cylons who decide Leoben's fate. He's so on a quest, I think one day he'll realize his nature and that he can't escape who he is.... They need to let the humans go. Not for the humans but for their own evolution. The Olympian gods trifled and tortured humans but in the end they stayed on Olympus. They had a place all their own.
The humans were generally better off when their gods stayed on Olympus rather than meddling in human affairs. I don't know that Leoben can come to that realization, though--his programming has this level of desire for a personal connection and it would take something extraordinary to either overcome that or make some other option more desirable.
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Can a machine that's prorammed even be considered good or evil?
That is the question. Are they just programmed machines anymore? Have they or can they evolve past their programming to independent thought? Is Sharon with Helo because she wants to be or is it because her model was programmed to love? Is that why she's so loyal? Free will or programming? I think that that's what the Cylons desperately want to be. Their own people. I don't want to say that they can't. I really don't know. But if they are independent than they can be good or evil. And when I think evil I think of the imprisonment, the taking of Tigh's eye, women hooked to machines. Did humanity make them do these things? When are the Cylons responsible? Are they ever?
Can you evolve to a soul? What a question. Can a machine have a spirit all it's own beyond programming? It's goes back to Flesh and Bone. What do you think?
his programming has this level of desire for a personal connection
Ah, ever the Leoben apologist. Is it his programming or his will? What if his programming was different and this very focus that he has for personal connection is his own will? I don't know if his model was built to love. Not sure what his model was designed for, but there is the possibility that personal connection wasn't part of the plan. I like that idea. Makes him more human. But still not, really.
it would take something extraordinary
You're probably right. And canon won't go down this road because Leoben is not a main character. But it would be amazing, wouldn't it? If Leoben can fight what may be programming or what may be his own desires.
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Hm, this discussion is forcing me to clarify my own thoughts. I guess I'd say that Sharon's actions stem from her programming, even her loyalty--if one overriding theme is programmed into a cylon (one or the whole line of the same model?), then they make choices based on that principal. For Sharon it would be to reproduce, to have (and raise?) a family. Her loyalty to the humans could be attributed to her programming even though she feels she made a choice.
Ah, ever the Leoben apologist. Is it his programming or his will?
Heh, I wasn't trying to defend him that time. I think he'd want to disagree with me, actually--to take responsibility for his actions because he believes in his soul. (And by take responsibility I mean he'd say he made choices to do them, but I doubt he'd want to go to prison for them.) But if his dominant programming says: fix Kara, or get Kara to love him, or help Kara fulfill her destiny, whatever... then his 'choices' are still programming, even if there's more than one course of action that could fit the program. They're sophisticated, but still machines.
I don't know if his model was built to love. Not sure what his model was designed for, but there is the possibility that personal connection wasn't part of the plan. I like that idea. Makes him more human. But still not, really.
Maybe his model was designed to be annoying? *g* I don't know. If he was designed to seek romantic love then his programming doesn't know much about humans. And what about the prophetic ability he seems to have? Ignoring head!Leoben for a moment, the Leoben in F&B really did have unusual knowledge. How is that possible to put in programming?
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Hee, me too.
I guess I'd say that Sharon's actions stem from her programming
Part of me hopes not. It's difficult to tell. Maybe Sharon was programmed to reproduce (Boomer too?) but it's hard to know if her defecting was solely from that. I'm not sure what D'Anna's programming was but those dreams on New Caprica affected her. Why did she have the dreams? Who knows? But I don't think her rebelling and going to the Algae planet was planned. Or maybe it was. I can't make a decision.
Leoben believes he is a man in love with a woman. He also feels that he is part of the Cylon's God's plan. He's so confusing. I'm of two minds. One is that his entire line of models is predisposed to be fascinated with Kara and her destiny. The other is that he is fascinated with destiny itself, the destiny of the humans, and since he 'knows' Kara is intertwined with that, he wants so much for her to acknowledge it. (Or he's a trickster as you say and just is inherently vague. He doesn't really annoy me. It's like a big riddle. Part of me knows he can't just give it all away easily. ;-) ) Maybe F&B Leoben became unusually attached to her. Like D'Anna with the Final Five. But maybe all the Leobens are. Simon had a particular focus about her too. He didn't try to convince Sue-Shaun, she got the tubes; Kara got surgery. Kara's special. All the Cylons seem to know that.
Leoben's prescience is interesting. In season one, I thought all of the Cylons knew more so his knowledge didn't seem unusual. Head!Six knew all sorts of things. Sharon knew about the special destiny of Kara's. Even now the Cavils seem to know . . . something. But then there were the dreams. Leoben in Laura's dreams. D'Anna's dreams. I'm not sure what to make of those. Laura and D'Anna seem a bit prescient at times too. One had chamalla, the other . . . what? What about Sharon and her "dark time" line?
Okay, here is my thought. It's bigger than Kara, Leoben, Laura, even Head!Six. All of this has happened before. Reminds me a bit of the Matrix. This battle has been fought before. The winner, Cylons or humans, is already decided. Maybe the humans who programmed the Cylons programmed this very knowledge into them. Maybe it was their God. Maybe they've studied the ancient scrolls. Or listened to the Hybrid.
So that's my thought. Hee, I always go bigger. The battle has already been won. Maybe the losing side (Cylons or humans, I don't know) is trying to change the outcome through programming the Cylons.
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I think we'd have to look back at the true origins of the cylons to get a hint about this; and we don't have any answers about how they were made. Yes, the humans made the centurions but they were surprised by the skinjobs... so who made them and when? Was it a government project? Did the bulletheads themselves try to mimic their human creators and make creatures that resemble us?
I never have watched the whole Matrix trilogy (actually I haven't even seen the whole first movie), but the idea of changing the past from the future is in other films... it really could fit here, especially since we don't know where the skinjobs came from.
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Whoa, this is getting deep. I tried to look up mind/body dualism but don't know if I can wrap my mind around it today.
I love the idea of how the Cylons obtain souls. Except if they are really people, wouldn't the soul just be there inherently? I think we have to get the truth this season about who created the cylons especially in light of the final four or five.
What are our souls and where did they originate?
You are prompting me to get all thinky here! I found two very interesting links here and here. One was about Data (an android) from Star Trek being put on trial to see if he was a person or not. And what the criteria for personhood was. I have to quote this because it relates to our discussion:
"Now sooner or later this man (a guy who wants to dismantle Data) or others like him will succeed in replicating Commander Data. Your ruling today will determine how we will regard this creation of our genius. It will reveal the kind of people we are, what he is destined to be. It will reach far beyond this courtroom and this one android. It could significantly redefine the boundaries of personal liberty. Expanding them for some, savagely curtailing them for others. Are you prepared to condemn him, and all those who come after him, to servitude and slavery? Your honor, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life -- well there it sits. Waiting."
Ooh, this reminds me so much of the cylons! Except we know for sure a human created Data. But sometimes I wonder, if the cylons have souls now, does it even matter who created them?
If you haven't seen the Matrix, definitely add at least the first movie to your Netflix queue. Very interesting if you like science fiction.
Now, I'm off to have a nap. Or out into the sunshine! One of those. :-)
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We have such a tendency to anthropomorphize things--we do it with our pets, I've even named my car and my computer and talked to them. *blushes* How much of the question about cylon humanity stems from the fact that they look like us and how much from what they've actually shown themselves to be capable of doing/being? How much do we know of the inner mental life of cylons? We've seen D'Anna's dreams, and Boomer's flashes of awareness of her true nature while she was a sleeper...
and this quote: an unconscious simulated intelligence certainly could be built out of software--and might be useful. Unfortunately, AI, cognitive science, and philosophy of mind are nowhere near knowing how to build one. They are missing the most important fact about thought: the "cognitive continuum" that connects the seemingly unconnected puzzle pieces of thinking (for example analytical thought, common sense, analogical thought, free association, creativity, hallucination).
Looking at this I'd be inclined to say that the cylons have at least reached the level of 'an unconscious simulated intelligence'--but what does that mean? It's not the same as a conscious mind.
I love the idea of how the Cylons obtain souls. Except if they are really people, wouldn't the soul just be there inherently? I think we have to get the truth this season about who created the cylons especially in light of the final four or five.
I think the soul question matters because of those big differences between cylon and human physiology--they may not age and they can definitely move into a new body. So how they obtain a soul matters because it might affect whether or not they can keep that soul. If I concede that Sharon Agathon has a soul, did she lose it when she resurrected? The very nature of her soul might be different than a human soul.
I wonder, if the cylons have souls now, does it even matter who created them?
I have to agree, if they do have souls, it shouldn't matter who made them--sentience is what's important. And if Sharon is sentient (has a soul), then it shouldn't matter that her soul is not fundamentally human... except that brings up the question again of should cylons and humans interact? Are we safe for each other or would our inherent differences, even if we all have souls, make us too dangerous to live in close proximity?
And the final four or five... okay, I've really reached the end of my thinkiness for this post. Sheesh. But it's so interesting!