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rose_griffes) wrote2008-01-16 06:33 pm
rose_griffes) wrote2008-01-16 06:33 pm
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L.A.W., Day 3: Discussion!
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daybreak777 is allowed to laugh at this next statement--I might have a slight tendency to be blind to Leoben's worst faults. Just maybe. *g* These aren't obligatory questions, but a way to start a discussion. Feel free to add more questions as well, if you'd like. Dissenting opinions are welcome but play nice with the other kids. Otherwise you'll have to serve detention and clean erasers. /teacher voice
The Leoben we saw during the mini-series was very different from Leoben being interviewed/tortured in 'Flesh and Bone'... and then season three Leoben seemed to be acting from a very different set of programming than either of the other two (in my opinion). So what are your theories about cylon programming? Does each model have a basic program, with individualized parts to help him work certain missions? Do the individual copies develop their own identities?
During 'Flesh and Bone', how did Leoben know Kara's identity and other information about her?
Does Leoben possess the ability to manifest in others' dreams? If so, why? If not, where did Roslin's dreams in F&B come from?
In season three Leoben told Kara he loved her, and said that he expects her to love him someday. He's 'seen' it. What does that mean?
In your opinion, what was the worst damage that Leoben caused when he held Kara captive? What effects in her life and behavior support this?
From 'Maelstrom': the paint!sex scene--gratuitous, integral or something in-between? What does it mean? And who/what was Leoben in that scene?
Who is head!Leoben? What's his agenda?
In a (sweaty) boxing match, what would win:
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2. I tend to think that was the Chamalla, what with Roslin's other prophetic visions.
3. I
hope hope hopethink that prophecy was fulfilled when she told him she loved him in order to save Kacey, and then skewered him. ;)4. She gave in. After the four months of captivity capped-off by the Kacey ruse, she actually began to feel something for him. I tend to go with mostly Stockholm-syndrome, but others may disagree. ;) And she begged, and Starbuck doesn't beg. As for changes in life and behavior; she went from someone who tried to protect Leoben and Sharon from summary execution to someone who was ready to commit one. I think when she told Gaeta to "beg," it was really because she needed to reduce someone else to her level. She also went from living to fly a viper to barely being able to care when she got grounded for reckless flying, and she lost her surrogate daughter relationship to Adama. And her marriage fell apart. The Quadrangle of Doom! And then she killed herself. *may have some slight issues with Leoben as regards Kara*
5. I'm really torn. I understand the symbolic aspect of it. I understand that she had to embrace her destiny and that Leoben represented that for her. But there's a part of me that hates the fact that it had to be represented sexually. And that it was sex with a former captor whom she'd spent four months resisting, in part sexually. (At least I think that's what "It would be nice if you'd join me" meant.) It's not rape fantasy but it does cut it close, to me. So I wish there'd been some other way to portray it.
6. I think he's the same entity as head!Six and head!Baltar. I'm guessing that he's an angel of the cylon god, and that his agenda is to unite the two races on earth (and under him.)
7. Dude. If Leoben can wup Kara's ass, he can wup Lee's. I will brook no argument on this issue. ;)
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I always find it worrisome that Leoben takes advice from the Hybrid(s). 'Cause he's crazy enough on his own. *g* As for freaky old hybrid and doom of humanity... I'm still baffled about how to interpret that.
2. I tend to think that was the Chamalla, what with Roslin's other prophetic visions.
I might have agreed with this early on but I've rewatched F&B way too many times now. (All for fic-related purposes, you understand.;-) Roslin's dreams were sympathetic toward him (or at least didn't show him in a scary way). And the result of the dreams was that she talked to him in person--which, if anything, benefited the cylons. He got to drip poison in her ear about 'Adama' (whichever one) being a cylon, and meet her and assess her for weaknesses, then take that information back to the others. Okay, possibly I'm over-analyzing this. Heh.
3. I
hope hope hopethink that prophecy was fulfilled when she told him she loved him in order to save Kacey, and then skewered him. ;)I'm writing fic that says otherwise, but considering that Leoben's insane, I'm not sure he's a reliable source for accurate forecasts of the future... plus, it's freaking me out, spending this much time in his head. Eep!
*may have some slight issues with Leoben as regards Kara*
*laughs* Yeah, I'm kinda gettin' that vibe. I think my pick would be anything/everything connected to Kacey. Because he made her believe and care, and it was all taken away from her.
... that it was sex with a former captor whom she'd spent four months resisting, in part sexually. (At least I think that's what "It would be nice if you'd join me" meant.) It's not rape fantasy but it does cut it close, to me. So I wish there'd been some other way to portray it.
I don't think that scene worked in the storytelling of the show as well as something else could have. (Not that I have ideas on what it should have been, but that's why I'm not a show writer.)
I think he's the same entity as head!Six and head!Baltar. I'm guessing that he's an angel of the cylon god, and that his agenda is to unite the two races on earth (and under him.)
Head!Leoben just makes my brain hurt, but so do head!Six and head!Baltar. I'm okay with their existence on the show as long as I don't try to think what they're supposed to be/how they exist. (Maybe the show will surprise me and give a wonderful rationale for their existence. That'd be nice.)
All that previous paragraph is just a way for me to say: I got nuthin' for this question myself.
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2. Hmmm, that's interesting. Head-Leoben?
*laughs* Yeah, I'm kinda gettin' that vibe. I think my pick would be anything/everything connected to Kacey. Because he made her believe and care, and it was all taken away from her.
I do get that it's not all his fault. No, really! ;) I do think everything that happened with Kara in Collaborators and Torn is down to him - she probably wouldn't have gone that far down if she hadn't been screwed up to begin with, but he sort of pulled the trigger on her subscriptions worth of issues. What I'd really like to know is why he did it. To take her out of commission? Because he knew, somehow, that she needed to be broken down in order to fulfill her destiny? Or was he simply hoping to play happy family in there with her forever?
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1. Does each model have a basic program, with individualized parts to help him work certain missions? Do the individual copies develop their own identities?
Yes, and yes. I think there is a base program but each Cylon's experiences can change it. They can overcome programming like D'Anna and Sharon. I feel like Leoben was programmed to be intense and to fixate. On God, on destiny. I think that he and Kara have some connection. Not just this cycle that we're watching but back and back and back. He sees it, he remembers. She doesn't. And when I say 'he' I mean F&B and NC Leoben.
2. Does Leoben possess the ability to manifest in others' dreams? If so, why? If not, where did Roslin's dreams in F&B come from?
No. I don't think so. I think that Roslin was on the chamalla and saw things. Like the snakes on the podium. She was prescient then. But I'm not sure, I should watch F&B again.
3. In season three Leoben told Kara he loved her, and said that he expects her to love him someday. He's 'seen' it. What does that mean?
Leoben remembers previous cycles. That's what he means. He has this limited ability to see the past and the future. I don't think each Leoben is this fixated on Kara. Connected to her yes, but this singlemindly? I don't think that is very Cylon-like. Cylons seem to be about the collective and consensus and not the individual. He's off the grid on this one. He's seen something real but is twisting it around for his own use. And unfortunately for him he's fallen into his own version of love with her. Not hard to do because she is awesome. (Oops, this is Leoben week! Bad Daybreak. But she is. :)) Leoben is losing a bit of that Cylon control with Kara. Or maybe he isn't! Maybe this is all part of the 'plan'. But as time goes on, I don't think so.
3. In your opinion, what was the worst damage that Leoben caused when he held Kara captive? What effects in her life and behavior support this?
Leoben got to her in that loft. Even before Kacey. She is not a person to be shut up like that, she told the truth to the Chief that she didn't think she was still alive in there. Then he made her believe him about Kacey, Kara who never wanted a child. She believed in Kacey wholeheartedly and gave him a piece of herself, however small, to get the girl and go free. She's never going to forget that. In her mind, she thinks she broke. Maybe she did. I was never really sure because then Julia Prynne came by and innocently finished what he started. Damn.
Support? Her 'caught up in her own world' speech to Kacey. The kiss, goodness, the kiss. Her talking about collaborators with three squares a day in the rec room with Tigh. And just the moment when she tells Sam, "She's my daughter!" Or when she talks with Helo about Leoben and that mandala. Such pain when she mentions him. Again, I don't know if she really broke or was just on the verge. But I think she feels a lot of guilt over it and it caused her so much damage.
4. From 'Maelstrom': the paint!sex scene--gratuitous, integral or something in-between? What does it mean? And who/what was Leoben in that scene?
The truth? No one made Kara had that dream. Not in my opinion. She was attracted to the guy but was fighting it so hard. And maybe she was more to him in another cyle, who knows? She was fighting her own destiny since childhood so hard too. But that dream? He didn't create it. That came from her head and I think that Head!Leoben did too. I separate paint!sex Leoben from kindly-esque Head!Leoben too. Paint!sex Leoben was Kara's frustrated psyche beginning to crack with her own contrary and reluctant desires (and not just sexual desire. I think a part of her really wanted to go into that mandala and always had). Head!Leoben might be her creation too. To convince herself to do what needed to be done. But I want Head!Leoben to be more.
Comment too large! How is that possible? Off to another window. ;-)
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I don't know! Months and months and much discussion later and I have no idea! I know who I want him to be. I want the Cylon God to exist and be kindly. I want head!Leoben to be an instrument of this God the way that Six says she always is. I think Kara draped her messenger in Leoben's face because that fit for her. She needed to fight her destiny and she was used to fighting him. If she could accept the words from him, she would have truly accepted her destiny. Whoa. I just made that up but it sounds right to me.
6. In a (sweaty) boxing match, what would win: wee yet fiery ApolloBamceps or wiry cylon strength?
Bamceps. He's wee but scrawy arms wouldn't have that much power. But Lee against Helo? Helo. But you got to admire Lee's gumption!
Blind Character Love is always okay. ;-) Who isn't blind to some character? Besides, you've come a long way, right? And hey, wait? Where are your answers to these questions? Now, I'm curious. And feel free to refute my crazy Leoben logic, this is fun. ;-)
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6. In a (sweaty) boxing match, what would win: wee yet fiery ApolloBamceps or wiry cylon strength?
Bamceps. He's wee but scrawy arms wouldn't have that much power. But Lee against Helo? Helo. But you got to admire Lee's gumption!
Yeah, but, cylon!strength. Twiggy little Sharon was stronger than the Bamcepts!
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Now you make me want to see an Apollo-Leoben showdown! I bet Lee has few choice moves for him. Ooooh! He may not win but if Kara can take down Six at Six's kickass best (because Kara is awesomely crazy), then who knows what Lee can do?
Actually, I don't care who wins, I just want to see it. Bring it, BSG, bring it!
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She should! Actually, they were going to have her beat up Gaeta but thought better of it.
Actually, I don't care who wins, I just want to see it. Bring it, BSG, bring it!
You know I would be rooting for Lee in spite of myself!
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As for head!Leoben, I hope the show answers that question in season four. Because I'm with you, I don't know what he is.
I think Kara draped her messenger in Leoben's face because that fit for her. She needed to fight her destiny and she was used to fighting him. If she could accept the words from him, she would have truly accepted her destiny. Whoa. I just made that up but it sounds right to me.
Heh, sounds good to me!
(know-it-all icon is used ironically)
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I've already said that for me, writing fic is my meta. Other people's fic can also convince of certain ideas; in this case, someone wrote that Leoben controlled Roslin's dreams and it was a 'Eureka!' moment for me. If you watch those scenes in F&B with that idea in mind, it works, considering what happens as a result of her dreams--him meeting both Kara and Roslin in person, getting the fleet separated. They would've been better off if he'd been executed before he could talk to anyone. Clearly I'm in the minority on this so far, though. *g*
I don't think each Leoben is this fixated on Kara. Connected to her yes, but this singlemindly? I don't think that is very Cylon-like. Cylons seem to be about the collective and consensus and not the individual. He's off the grid on this one. He's seen something real but is twisting it around for his own use. And unfortunately for him he's fallen into his own version of love with her. Not hard to do because she is awesome. (Oops, this is Leoben week! Bad Daybreak. But she is. :)) Leoben is losing a bit of that Cylon control with Kara. Or maybe he isn't! Maybe this is all part of the 'plan'. But as time goes on, I don't think so.
This is a fascinating chain of thought. I would agree that this Leoben is more fixated on her, thinks he loves her (yes, because she's that awesome, heh)... but I still don't know where that leads. Is he really losing part of what makes him cylon, is he going against the collective will? (Notice I'm asking, not answering, because I just don't know.)
I don't know if she really broke or was just on the verge. But I think she feels a lot of guilt over it and it caused her so much damage.
Well-said; I think her guilt over believing him, maybe even feeling like she was a collaborator herself just pulls her down.
Paint!sex Leoben was Kara's frustrated psyche beginning to crack with her own contrary and reluctant desires (and not just sexual desire. I think a part of her really wanted to go into that mandala and always had).
Within a couple of days of 'Maelstrom' airing, I called the whole paint!sex scene gratuitous. (Doesn't mean I didn't think it was hot, but I did feel it wasn't necessary.) I'm just not sure it works as part of the story to call it her breaking psyche. But I'm the queen of genfic, so I'm probably biased against it. Hm. I'll have to think about it more. (Off to rewatch! *g*)
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Hmm . . . I've been thinking about this comment. While I do think there was an aspect of the scene that is gratuitous and male fantasy-esque (the writhing, Hotdog watching, ew), I don't think it's totally unnecessary.
For me, it proved that Kara does have some sexual attraction to Leoben. I saw the kiss in Exodus but there were so many layers to that action, especially so soon after her being imprisoned that I couldn't be sure then. But something in her wants the guy, paint!sex proved that. This was her dream, her head and her mind went there. Since the mandala was there too, I think the dream was important. I think seeing the pictures that Helo gave her triggered something in her. And she couldn't push her memories of the mandala away anymore. She couldn't push anything away anymore. Not her childhood self, not her memories of her mother, and not her feelings for Leoben whatever they are. And Kara's a sexual being. Very confused and I think her mind and pysche are mixed up and on the verge of madness in this ep and it all gets mixed up into one for her.
Rose, from a gen POV, do you think that Kara is sexually attracted to Leoben? If so, why would a scene showing that be gratuitous (voyeur!Hotdog and writhing, aside)?
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Okay, yes, I think Kara's physically attracted to Leoben at some level. The kiss in Exodus, part II seemed to show that--she could've stabbed him a lot sooner than she did.
I think my basic problem with the whole paint!sex scene is that it was sloppy storytelling and they could've done better. It was lacking in setup--we could've have a few brief Kara-related scenes in previous episodes showing her struggling with nightmares. The writhing and pervy staring were just ridiculous--RDM's wife pointing out that women don't really do that when they dream makes me laugh, but it's true. And if she wasn't writhing around, Hotdog wouldn't have been staring, probably. (Except that he really is a pervert, according to the show, so maybe he would've anyway, heh.)
Hm. I guess my main complaint is the suddeness of it. Though it certainly was an attention-getting opening scene.
Part of my annoyance with it might stem from knowing some about behind-the-scenes--Katee mentioning at a con that the director for the episode had filmed it as a rape scene, then the editing begins and they take it another direction. What was on the page by the writers that caused this kind of waffling? I can't help feeling (hoping?) that the writers might have been able to create something better to symbolize Kara's fears about destiny, death, etc.
And lastly, I don't want sex with Leoben to symbolize everything she's ever been afraid of/attracted to. So there. (How's that for a mature ending to this comment?!)
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Yeah, she could have tried but I always have the feeling that Leoben always let her kill him. He had no problem knocking her out when all hell broke loose on NC. No, he needed the words. After that I don't think he cared what she did.
I guess my main complaint is the suddeness of it.
Would it help to know in one of the podcasts, they were going to show Kara having nightmares in Collaborators, I think? They should have put that in, to show how her imprisonment affected her. I actually think in my own personal canon, I think I knew she was already having some inner turmoil over everything that happenened on N.C. Something in the way she reacted to Sam soon after had PTSD all over it. But then she apparently got over that by Unfinished Business time. Someone on that show likes writing Kara having lots of sex, dream or otherwise. Hmm. I've accepted as part of her personality that she sometimes uses sex in unhealthy ways.
Maybe it's not good that I, or we the audience, have accepted that. Maybe it shouldn't be so easy for me to believe that the paint!sex would symbolize her fears and destiny. But it wasn't the sex, that was so freaky, it was the mandala burning through, her focus on it, how she almost didn't really care what was happening to her body, that was so weird. It was very confusing. Confusing, disturbing even, but still hot. But it put me in Kara's head. Maybe that's how she feels about him.
I don't want sex with Leoben to symbolize everything she's ever been afraid of/attracted to
Ah. Well, what else could sex with Leoben symbolize for her? You know what? Somehow this week, rereading all of the fics, thinking again about the episodes, brings home to me that Leoben is associated with her destiny in someway. Even if it's her own mind using him as messenger, or if he's manipulating his role, he's part of it somehow. A big or small part, I don't know. Kara has begun to accept her destiny, I think. Maybe she'll accept that he's involved in it somehow. I don't blame her for being afraid of him or the destiny. They are both scary. But she went into the mandala anyway. And she will face Leoben again. Hopefully, this time without any fear. You know you can't wait for that scene. Kara facing down Leoben? Oh yeah, we better get that scene!
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Yeah, she could have tried but I always have the feeling that Leoben always let her kill him. He had no problem knocking her out when all hell broke loose on NC. No, he needed the words. After that I don't think he cared what she did.
*nods* I'm thinking anytime during/after the first kiss he would've let her go ahead and stab him... and yes, absolutely he let her kill him all those times before.
Would it help to know in one of the podcasts, they were going to show Kara having nightmares in Collaborators, I think?
I wish they'd gone ahead and shown at least one nightmare before 'Maelstrom.' *sigh*
Someone on that show likes writing Kara having lots of sex, dream or otherwise.
It's interesting too, because her sex scenes before were definitely less... fetished? Definitely less squick-inducing. But let's see. Season one, the Leegasm (sex with Baltar, with the unhealthy but short-lived fight between Kara and Lee). Season two, Anders being
a jerkclever the morning after, an intense make-out round with Lee in which he won't put up with being a replacement for someone else. Then season three we get: unhealthy captivity with definite sexual overtones ("Either way you'll be spending the night with me"), that kiss, Anders being used for a booty call, flashbacks to sex with Lee on NC, raptor almost-infidelity, more booty calls with Sam and then the 'Maelstrom' dubious-con nightmare sex scene. That's quite an acceleration. I realize that we're supposed to see Kara breaking down throughout the season, but that's a whole lotta sexin' goin' on in season three.Hmm. I've accepted as part of her personality that she sometimes uses sex in unhealthy ways.
I'm not questioning that... even if I don't accept the sweeping characterizations of her starting with season one Lee accusing her of sleeping around 'just like before,' (because that was jealousy talking) she's always had that burning energy and it flares out inappropriately: the eye-frakking with Lee, playing games with Baltar before she sleeps with him, falling into Sam's bed...
Maybe it's not good that I, or we the audience, have accepted that. Maybe it shouldn't be so easy for me to believe that the paint!sex would symbolize her fears and destiny. But it wasn't the sex, that was so freaky, it was the mandala burning through, her focus on it, how she almost didn't really care what was happening to her body, that was so weird. It was very confusing. Confusing, disturbing even, but still hot. But it put me in Kara's head. Maybe that's how she feels about him.
As unhealthy as Kara's sexual behavior can be, she never seemed to be interested in being dominated or obliterated by sexual activity. She likes it, she doesn't always make good choices about it... I dunno, I think that's the heart of my problem with the scene. Because she does care about her body and in that moment, she didn't.
Hm. Maybe I'm the one not accepting the general view of everyone else, or just not accepting what the writers were trying to convey, even though I wrote fic about it. ('Saved by Zero.') Heck, I think that fic was my attempt to reconcile what we didn't see with what we should've seen.
But she went into the mandala anyway. And she will face Leoben again. Hopefully, this time without any fear. You know you can't wait for that scene. Kara facing down Leoben? Oh yeah, we better get that scene!
But will she face down Leoben or head!Leoben? I've come to the conclusion that part of my problem with the whole episode is that there are two Leobens (dream!Leoben and head!Leoben) but neither one is actually Leoben. And he's the character that interests me. We may well see Kara come to terms with head!Leoben but possibly not the regular one... and maybe by then that'll be okay with me but since I know the real Leoben a whole lot better than head!Leoben, I find him more interesting.
Um, I think I'm done for now. *rolls eyes at self*
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that's a whole lotta sexin' goin' on in season three.
Yeah, but that's Kara. I love her and that's who she is. Sam accepted that and on some level Lee knows it too, but he can't accept it. That's why he stopped the Scar hookup (curses!) and even the raptor outmaking. Much discussion has gone into RDM's 'tomcatting' comment about Starbuck and Anders' line, "you think you were the first?" I choose to believe Sam was just baiting Lee with that, I mean Kara is not Ellen Tigh. (Shoot, on NC, even Ellen Tigh wasn't quite Ellen Tigh.) I also don't think that Sam and Kara promised fidelity. She doesn't seem concerned with that little vow and frankly, neither does he.
The point in question is this scene. Here's the thing. Any scene with Kara and Leoben romantically would have some issues with consent. The guy imprisoned her. She's not just going to fall willingly into bed with him. Doesn't means she doesn't have attraction to him (see: writhing and gasping) but doesn't mean she really wants to do it, either. She was messed up in that episode. Totally and completely. There was nothing clear or black and white going on with her around that time. (Gosh, for a moment Leoben reminds me of Pepe Le Pew. Relentless. Trying to cheer you a bit, with cartoon character. :-))
I feel, as a fan, I know way too much about that scene. Whatever idea they started with and however squicky and male fantasy I find the whole writhing thing, if I take it at face value, it's a woman having a dream that's turning her on. Right or wrong, that's what I think was part of the final intent and that's how it read for many of us before we knew about the filming. That's how I have to take it. And damn, it was hot. Writhing aside, the paint!sex alone was hot. Not healthy or even right, but no one ever said what's hot is exactly healthy or right, either.
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maybe by then that'll be okay with me but since I know the real Leoben a whole lot better than head!Leoben, I find him more interesting.
I know you do. But he's scary. He has the power to hurt Kara. He has before and he will try again. Hurt her in her mind. Be careful what you wish for because real!Leoben could be that paint guy. He could be colder than that, I've seen it in him. I'll take kindly Head!Leoben over that guy for Kara to face down any day. Not as interesting but infinitely safer for her. Whichever Leoben shows up, I think she'll be ready for him. I have a lot of faith in her.
One more thing that might make you even more thinky. During L.A.W. looking for meta, I found these interview scans. It seems as if Callum may have played the Maelstrom Leobens as the real Leoben. But maybe not. Let's not let that confuse us! Actors have to do what they need to to play a scene. What we got, was those guys were not Leobens. Sometimes I think we as fans, know too much. Doesn't stop me from sharing it with you though. ;-)
I don't know if all this was helpful but the vid is cute, isn't it?
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Much discussion has gone into RDM's 'tomcatting' comment about Starbuck and Anders' line, "you think you were the first?" I choose to believe Sam was just baiting Lee with that, I mean Kara is not Ellen Tigh. (Shoot, on NC, even Ellen Tigh wasn't quite Ellen Tigh.)
Yeah, I personally like the whole 'baiting' Lee theory; apparently Trucco and Sackhoff do, too. And it worked; Lee's face right after Sam said it was just all kinds of woobified.
I also don't think that Sam and Kara promised fidelity. She doesn't seem concerned with that little vow and frankly, neither does he.
Hm. I can see that in Kara but I'm not sure I see it in Sam. And actually I wouldn't have said that before the whole Occupation arc; I'm guessing she really tried (before she got taken by Leoben) to be a good wife, though it wouldn't have been easy for her. Not because she's incapable of fidelity but because her first instinct is always to run away from whatever is making her face real intimacy. After New Caprica, though, she redefined everything and Sam let her. He took what he could get. As far as strategies go (for getting her back), it wasn't great but there weren't many options, either.
Any scene with Kara and Leoben romantically would have some issues with consent. The guy imprisoned her. She's not just going to fall willingly into bed with him. Doesn't means she doesn't have attraction to him (see: writhing and gasping) but doesn't mean she really wants to do it, either.
*sniff* I know. Doesn't mean I have to like it. *sulks*
I think I'm going to have to revise who I say is my favorite character. Because clearly it's not Kara if Leoben's around. He's like a trump card over my Kara-compassion. During 'Collaborators' for example, Kara's being horrible to Felix and I feel bad for both of them, but especially Kara--even though Felix should get more of my sympathy. But put Leoben onscreen and I don't care what happens to Kara nearly as much as I want to see Leoben playing mind games. So the paint!scene just wasn't what I wanted as a Leoben-fan, because that wasn't really him. And it wasn't what I wanted as a Kara fan because what I like about her is how she never gives up, but she did that time. She might run away but if she sticks around, she keeps trying and trying... and she just let that all fall away that time.
Speaking of trump cards--emotion wins out over cool logic, because now I'm getting to the point where logically the scene makes a certain degree of sense. But emotionally I just don't want to accept it. I think it's why I'm a better Kara-fan than Lee-fan because Lee often (not always, though) makes sense to me, but logic isn't what makes me prefer Kara over Lee.
*headdesk* I'm going on too long to fit this in one comment box.
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Hee! I was a bit odd but so cute! Sometimes one needs a bit of humor. ;-) Glad you liked it.
After New Caprica, though, she redefined everything and Sam let her. He took what he could get.
I agree. I think that while Dee and Sam loves their spouses after a while they both took what they could get. It's the end of the world, you compromise. I also said this (that fidelity didn't mean much) about Sam because at one point he encouraged Kara to follow her heart and go to Lee. He just wanted her to be happy. It's one thing Sam and I have in common.
(Btw way, Sam has changed too. I saw your comment about his morning after
horninesscleverness. Morning afters surely changed for them. I like season 3 Sam better. He was so honest. I really respected that.)*sniff* I know. Doesn't mean I have to like it. *sulks*
I know, I know. I was a bit in denial too. Some people saw the chemistry and her reluctant attraction in F&B but not me. I saw it in Exodus Pt.2, but paint!sex was the clincher. I don't know if I like it but I've accepted it. Hey, maybe if Kara's aware of this she can be even stronger when she faces him.
I think I'm going to have to revise who I say is my favorite character.
Oh noes! You don't want to revise! You really don't, do you? You care about her, you're just fascinated by him. He's hypnotic like that. But you're not fascninated enough to want him to hurt her mind? You don't want him to win. Besides he's not going to. Remember paint!sex was a dream. Not real. She hasn't given up. She just had to realize some truths about herself to fight another day.
I'm getting to the point where logically the scene makes a certain degree of sense. But emotionally I just don't want to accept it.
Ah, emotions. I think I've figured out the scene logically. But emotionally? Emotionally my girl is hurting and messed up and while she and Leoben have that chemistry, I just worry for her the whole time I watch it. Part of me likes to see them together and the other part of me flinches the entire time. That's always been my emotional reading of the scene. I think that was intended and damn them, it worked.
Logic vs. emotions with this show? Logic goes out the window. I've learned that this week. Character love can trump all. It's probably why we all still watch the show. And while we are still waiting on it!
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I think she'd have to face up to it in some way--'cause that was one heckuva dream and I doubt she's forgotten it. Though considering her
deathtemporary setback, maybe she has forgotten, who knows?Logic vs. emotions with this show? Logic goes out the window. I've learned that this week. Character love can trump all. It's probably why we all still watch the show. And while we are still waiting on it!
*nods* And waiting, and waiting. Hm. I really need to finish that Racetrack on Earth fic before season four ends up jossing it completely. *gingerly pokes muse*
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Heh. I always thought he was a bit creepy and clueless... which really, really fits this scenario. *grins*
I hope that Head!Leoben is maybe more but I have no proof of that.
The logical side of me hopes that he's more, too.
maybe by then that'll be okay with me but since I know the real Leoben a whole lot better than head!Leoben, I find him more interesting.
I know you do. But he's scary. He has the power to hurt Kara. He has before and he will try again. Hurt her in her mind. Be careful what you wish for because real!Leoben could be that paint guy. He could be colder than that, I've seen it in him. I'll take kindly Head!Leoben over that guy for Kara to face down any day. Not as interesting but infinitely safer for her. Whichever Leoben shows up, I think she'll be ready for him. I have a lot of faith in her.
Again, yes, logically, it would be better for Kara if head!Leoben is around, not the real thing. My brain stares logic in the face and says, "Who wanted you?!" See, I knew if I found a theme, I'd be able to figure this out. My theme: I don't like logic. I like Leoben. *laughs*
Did you ever see the movie Labyrinth? I'm imagining Kara facing down Leoben in a way that resembles Sara facing down the Goblin King and telling him "You have no power over me." Which would totally work for me, because so much of what he did preyed on fears and feelings that were there a long time before Kara ever met Leoben / Sara ever met the Goblin King.
Cheesy 80's movie references FTW! (And yes, I had a huge David Bowie/Goblin King crush during my early teen years. Heh.)
During L.A.W. looking for meta, I found these interview scans. It seems as if Callum may have played the Maelstrom Leobens as the real Leoben. But maybe not. Let's not let that confuse us! Actors have to do what they need to to play a scene. What we got, was those guys were not Leobens. Sometimes I think we as fans, know too much. Doesn't stop me from sharing it with you though. ;-)
Those were interesting. Because once I got past the whole 'oooooh, CKR, shiny' phase of 'Maelstrom' I'd have to say that his head!Leoben felt very, very different from the other one. But they could all be parts of the same whole composite--each model having a different piece of the whole personality construct.
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Hee! Hi, Blind Love girl. But he boiled puppies! Hee. You just love him. It's almost unconditional. You, who are usually so toughlove. But despite this I know if you ever had to choose between Kara and the real Leoben, I think I know who you'd choose. But maybe I'm wrong. Most of the time you're quite logical. But not with this guy!
I'm imagining Kara facing down Leoben in a way that resembles Sara facing down the Goblin King and telling him "You have no power over me."
YES. I vaguely remember Mia Sara in this movie. She was dressed in black. She seemed to have given into darkness but, no. No. Our girls will win out. I have no doubt in this.
they could all be parts of the same whole composite--each model having a different piece of the whole personality construct.
Who knows? It doesn't really matter. Her interludes with Leoben in Maelstrom enabled her to go into the mandala and be changed. She was strong before, I think this will make her even stronger. All the Leobens have been pushing her toward her destiny and she's going to be ready when she faces it. Leoben, whichever Leoben, is going to be surprised, I think.
(Hmm. Billy Idol, David Bowie, Spike, CKR, I'm seeing a type here. Ginga Ninja doesn't quite fit in but there is a definite type . . . ;-))
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Yeah, I'd choose Kara, but I'd really want a nice juicy scene with Leoben as well.
Hmm. Billy Idol, David Bowie, Spike, CKR, I'm seeing a type here. Ginga Ninja doesn't quite fit in but there is a definite type
Yeah, older blond guys seems to be a theme. (And nope, Ginger Ninja doesn't fit that type. Just shows that I can be flexible. ;-)
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That’s what I was hoping you’d say! And who doesn’t want a scene with them? They are compelling together. And she’s going to kick his ass. Maybe in his mind for a change. Oooh!
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Hm. I guess my main complaint is the suddeness of it. Though it certainly was an attention-getting opening scene.
Part of my annoyance with it might stem from knowing some about behind-the-scenes--Katee mentioning at a con that the director for the episode had filmed it as a rape scene, then the editing begins and they take it another direction. What was on the page by the writers that caused this kind of waffling? I can't help feeling (hoping?) that the writers might have been able to create something better to symbolize Kara's fears about destiny, death, etc.
Can I just say that I adore you? I found the paintsex dream sudden but given the looks on Kara's face in it--her expression seemed so haunted and troubled to me--I found it hard to watch, but I was okay with taking that as symbolic of all of her fears and doubts and yet attraction to the idea of her destiny. But the cut to Kara writhing and moaning didn't seem to fit, and that, plus the Hotdog perving, was really gratuitous. I felt like that had the effect of cheapening all that had preceeded it.
So, I join you in wishing they had been able to create something better to symbolize all that was going on with Kara. I think Leoben could have been used just as effectively in another sort of dream.
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Go ahead! *g*
I found the paintsex dream sudden but given the looks on Kara's face in it--her expression seemed so haunted and troubled to me...
It is haunting just how unlike herself Kara is in the scene.
I was okay with taking that as symbolic of all of her fears and doubts and yet attraction to the idea of her destiny. But the cut to Kara writhing and moaning didn't seem to fit, and that, plus the Hotdog perving, was really gratuitous. I felt like that had the effect of cheapening all that had preceeded it.
It's hard to say how much of my lack of appreciation of the scene comes from my mostly non-shippy outlook in general when I watch TV, how much from the lack of real!Leoben (and real!Kara, frankly) and how much from imperfect planning and execution. *sigh* I don't hate the scene, it does work to a certain degree (once CKR fans like me get past the whole 'look, it's Leoben!' phase), but it could've been better. And really--no, really Ron, your wife was right. Sleeping women don't move like that in REM-sleep. Argh.
I think Leoben could have been used just as effectively in another sort of dream.
Absolutely. Both Rennie and Sackhoff have such an onscreen presence it seems a shame to waste it on a completely non-verbal scene.
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1. I've watched yesterday the last part of season 2 Kobol in which Helo's Sharon tells Adama that she is not the same Sharon who shoot him. She has no programm or somenthing else she must follow. She can find her own way. On the other side she knows everything of the crew of the Galactica and she knows the Chief very good too. She was never on Galactica nor has she met the Chief till this moment. I think there is a contradiction. How can she know everything of Galactica Sharon and on the other side not be the same copy?
The same is it with Leoben. I think he knows everything of Mini-Series Leoben but he is not the sam in Flesh and Bone nor in the 3rd season. Maybe the copys have a generaly memory? All experience that one copy made will known by the others. No! Again it's Sharon who corrects me... *gg* The Sharon with Hera loves her child. The Sharon on the Ressurection ship wants to murder her.
The question is very hard to explain and I hope we all get an answer in season 4.
2. Does he know everything about Kara? Or does he pretend he knows everything about Kara? I think a little bit of both opinions. He is Leoben. Bad guy. Intriguer. I don't know what it is really between him and Kara. If she is something special. If he is the only one who can see the "big plan". I don't know. But I love the thought of a Leoben who knows really something more than the humans... and I hate the thought that he is maybe only crazy.
3. He doesn't manifest in other peoples dream. For Laura it was the drug I think. For Kara... I think/hope maybe her subconscious wants to tell her something?
4. The same answer as 2.
5. Worst damage? Kara has got feelings for him during the capture. She fight against him but she needs him too (I think of the scene with Kacey injured and Kara touches Leobens hand). That must be very hard for Kara!
6. He was a dream. Something Karas subconscious sends to her. Maybe a hidden wish? The scene was necessary for a better understanding of Kara. I think in season 4 she will be act more like a cylon-lover than as the Kara of the Mini-Serie or Season 1+2. That must be explained for us.
7. I don't know. Maybe really a dream of Kara. Maybe something more. I like him very much and I like the way Kara reacts on him.
8. Leoben. No chance for Lee.
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Good to see you 'round here!
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You're right with Sharon and Helo. Sharon knows that her feelings for Hera won't change through the download and she didn't know of the attempt of murder Adama. It is a contradiction - or a very good explaining is waiting for us in season 4.
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The question is very hard to explain and I hope we all get an answer in season 4.
Good points about Sharon and Boomer. I do think the cylons have basic programming with the ability to make choices based on that programming. But there are lots of pieces that don't fit with that scenario.
But I love the thought of a Leoben who knows really something more than the humans... and I hate the thought that he is maybe only crazy.
Well, he might be crazy and still know more about the humans than he should. I do think there's at least an element of insanity in what he does, but it might be 'part of the plan.'
The scene was necessary for a better understanding of Kara. I think in season 4 she will be act more like a cylon-lover than as the Kara of the Mini-Serie or Season 1+2.
Interesting. It would fit with her being an outcast and distrusted, because the others believed her to be dead.
8. Leoben. No chance for Lee.
Yes, I agree. Sorry, Lee!
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And that may play into why Boomer and Athena are so different, because they started with the same basic template and the same memories, but their lived experience since Athena's activation has been dramatically different. Like, say, identical twins who are raised together for a portion of their childhood, then separated (which doesn't happen outside of thought experiments, I hope, but it's a decent analogy). Of course, WHY Athena and Boomer are so different might have come across more clearly if Moore hadn't kept trimming out the scenes of post-Exodus Boomer trying to bond with the pop tart, anger that Hera's not her baby with Tyrol, and her friendship with Caprica Six being nibbled away at by Six's own attempts to be a mother figure, and Six's preoccupation with the Three/Baltar menage a trois.
It's a bit like those promo pics of Starbuck interrogating a Leoben in Measure of Salvation, or of Leoben on the algae planet. It's like, damnit, you filmed this stuff, why can't you show it? Or at the very least, don't release promo pics with stills from cut scenes. Or talk casually about continuity stuff that never made it into an episode but would've made Boomer's actions in Rapture seem less out of left field. And I swear Callum Keith Rennie must have run over Moore's dog or something. Why else cut his role down to wallpaper between Exodus and Rapture when stuff was filmed?
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Good comparison; I've sometimes struggled with the reasons behind the differences in the same models (though it's a tribute to the different actors playing cylons that they make them all so fascinating).
Of course, WHY Athena and Boomer are so different might have come across more clearly if Moore hadn't kept trimming out the scenes of post-Exodus Boomer trying to bond with the pop tart, anger that Hera's not her baby with Tyrol, and her friendship with Caprica Six being nibbled away at by Six's own attempts to be a mother figure, and Six's preoccupation with the Three/Baltar menage a trois.
That's a lot of cut scenes; I really hope that at least part of them end up on the US DVD's. (I'm assuming y'all will get the same DVD's in Canada, right? Since they're both in region 1 for the encoding...) Funnily enough I hadn't heard of those particular scenes--probably because I was so focused on why no CKR? that I never paid attention to other cut scenes. Hm... the scenes you mentioned would have gone a long way toward making the basestar more interesting, in my opinion.
Or at the very least, don't release promo pics with stills from cut scenes. Or talk casually about continuity stuff that never made it into an episode but would've made Boomer's actions in Rapture seem less out of left field.
Augh, I know. So irritating.
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And now I'm in an entirely too thinky place to be able to articulate any of it. Which is not very helpful :) I love this post and the discussion, that much I can put into words, and it's helping me to get closer to putting my finger on why I'm often so confused by Leoben's role in the story-arcs. It's buried somewhere in your question about which Leoben shows up at any given time and how different the multiple versions (dream!, head!, real!) actually come across to me. I'm rarely confused as to which Six is on my screen but then the writers tend to make it easy to decipher her incarnations, whereas they don't help me out in regards to Leoben. I spent a lot of time during 'Maelstrom' just trying to keep track of that. (It kind of helps that you seem to be if not confused then maybe conflicted about some things *s*)
He is such a fascinating character with enormous potential, especially because of CKR and his acting skills and charisma. Ragnar!Leoben scared me deeply and was most instrumental in convincing me that the cylons were dangerous, even though they'd won by that point. And he made 'Flesh and Bones' a very creepy and fascinating hour of TV to watch. It's some of the later incarnations that really confuse me and I've put that down as a problem with the writing, not the character as originally created. Now I just might get why...
And now I'll stop the rambling.... (I'm sorry if this makes no sense at all - it's probably me over-thinking things a bit or just being so tired I shouldn't be allowed near a key-board *g*)
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Oh, definitely. I thought he was terrifying. I wonder if they always had it in mind to make him such a manipulator, because we didn't see that side of him in the mini-series.
It's some of the later incarnations that really confuse me and I've put that down as a problem with the writing, not the character as originally created. Now I just might get why...
Good luck with that! *g*
I don't think I've ever mentioned this in a post before, but I was very surprised at the season three incarnation of Leoben. I really didn't expect to see him in the role of "wooer" (for lack of a better word); I did see the chemistry between his character and Kara in F&B, but I didn't expect the show to run with it in that particular direction. I did think it was watchable (which seems contrary to your own opinion, but we all have our preferences), but not what I would have predicted.
I really do get why people don't like the season three Kara-Leoben storyline. Even I have qualms with it, in spite of my fascination.
I spent a lot of time during 'Maelstrom' just trying to keep track of that. (It kind of helps that you seem to be if not confused then maybe conflicted about some things *s*)
Yes, definitely conflicted. "Death" of a favorite character, a dream-Leoben, a possibly angelic-not-Leoben appearance... I hope the writers have some plan in mind for dealing with these head!entities; I'd like some resolution about them.
As for season four, I haven't heard anything that would indicate no Leoben, so the question is, which Leoben will we get? A popular idea in fandom is that it's just one Leoben who's obsessed with Kara; we could see him, or a non-Kara-obessed Leoben, or head!Leoben... At this point I couldn't even make a guess.