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rose_griffes) wrote2020-01-17 06:50 pm
rose_griffes) wrote2020-01-17 06:50 pm
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you knew this wasn't over (Star Wars thoughts - minimal spoilers for IX)
One fannish dividing point I find interesting is how we perceive the role of Kylo Ren and his relationship with Rey in The Last Jedi. Specifically: was writer/director Rian Johnson creating the foundation for a romance between them? Or did he explore that potential as a way to show that Kylo Ren was, for worse, the result of his own choices? Is Johnson the king of reylo fandom, or is he exploring Rey's own dark side by making Kylo seem appealing only to pull that mask away and show us Kylo as angry and petulant? (A jerk with a heart of a jerk, I once read elsewhere.)
Whatever the reason for the confusion about intentions: while it felt like Johnson was flirting with the idea of Rey and Kylo forming some kind of relationship in episode 8, it also was obvious to me by the end of the film that this was one of his infamous subverted expectations. We're meant to see Kylo Ren as redeemable and "soft" (from Rey's point of view), only for it to be revealed that he isn't. The young woman he's drawn to--his equal in the Force, who has no familial ties to complicate things--asks him to stop the slaughter of her friends and he turns her down. He takes leadership of the whole First Order and confirms his own commitment to destroying anyone who opposes them.
It'sone of the few basically the only clear arc to me within the film: Kylo has character growth as a villain because he makes choices to continue in villainy, even when given motivation and agency to change.
This is why it's so confusing for me to see reylo fans make comments about how Rian Johnson's hypothetical version of episode IX would have given them the reylo happy ending they wanted. I disagree; we'll never know what Johnson might have written (was he even given the chance to refuse that job?), but I think he would have written Kylo in full villain mode, with a more tragic ending than what Abrams and Terrio gave Ben Solo.
In other words, the reylo content made in IX was far more reylo-positive than what "Reylo King" Johnson would have given us. That's my two cents on the matter, anyway. Would Rian Johnson have written more interesting material for Kylo Ren than Abrams and Terrio did? Quite possibly. But that's a different question.
Edited to add: this tumblr post and reblog basically argue something similar.
Whatever the reason for the confusion about intentions: while it felt like Johnson was flirting with the idea of Rey and Kylo forming some kind of relationship in episode 8, it also was obvious to me by the end of the film that this was one of his infamous subverted expectations. We're meant to see Kylo Ren as redeemable and "soft" (from Rey's point of view), only for it to be revealed that he isn't. The young woman he's drawn to--his equal in the Force, who has no familial ties to complicate things--asks him to stop the slaughter of her friends and he turns her down. He takes leadership of the whole First Order and confirms his own commitment to destroying anyone who opposes them.
It's
This is why it's so confusing for me to see reylo fans make comments about how Rian Johnson's hypothetical version of episode IX would have given them the reylo happy ending they wanted. I disagree; we'll never know what Johnson might have written (was he even given the chance to refuse that job?), but I think he would have written Kylo in full villain mode, with a more tragic ending than what Abrams and Terrio gave Ben Solo.
In other words, the reylo content made in IX was far more reylo-positive than what "Reylo King" Johnson would have given us. That's my two cents on the matter, anyway. Would Rian Johnson have written more interesting material for Kylo Ren than Abrams and Terrio did? Quite possibly. But that's a different question.
Edited to add: this tumblr post and reblog basically argue something similar.
glompcat: There is a looooot of Star Wars discourse that I can not stand. Rather than focus on all of it (there is SO MUCH), I will just say that one of the main ones that really gets me is the argument that by having the main villain of the ST play a major role in the movie… where he is the main villain…. Rian was trying to make Kylo sympathetic/something less than a villain.
There are just countless posts saying “Rian probably wanted us to think Kylo wasn’t a terrible person BUT (lists things that were overt in TLJ, or from the books Rian himself edited like Bloodline, actual main text that displays that Kylo is a terrible person - almost as if his arc in TLJ was about how no one was forcing him to make the choices he was, as if even though he is torn up about it that doesn’t change the fact that he keeps making the bad choice, as if the movie showed us him killing Snoke so there is no one left to blame, and yet he STILL chooses to stay and lead the First Order rather than go for any form of redemption.. oh wait THAT WAS EXACTLY WHAT THE MOVIE SHOWED US).”
I mean there is a lot about how the fandom latched onto a few people’s hate of Rian and then warped the movie around that, claiming he wanted Kylo to be something other than the villain when… that movie was so restlessly damning of him, like TFA pushed a ~poor manipulated Kylo~ narrative and then TLJ tore that narrative to shreds, but alas even talking about that is impossible because everyone on here just wants to send this man death threats, and have done so to such an intensity that LucasFilm changed all their policies so we no longer can know anything about what is coming to shield the people involved with them from the never ending hate everyone involved with TLJ got.
Note: Literally the only reason this is my least favorite Star Wars discourse, and “Anakin did nothing wrong and the Jedi were evil/abusive/terribad” isn’t, is because this discourse involves death threats to a real person. If it wasn’t for that, the people who read all kinds of malicious stuff into the Jedi’s actions would be getting the #1 worst spot on my list.
permian-tropos: God thank you for this omfg I keep trying to figure out where the idea that the movie sides with Kylo comes from.
Like. There’s subtext and then there’s text. Cinematic language is a language, a language to convey images and sounds through a narrative point of view. Visual framing has textual elements.
Kylo Ren’s point of view isn’t one the narrative favors and that’s not open to interpretation. I don’t mean his point of view as in his beliefs and opinions. Actually being in his head, having him be the perspective the audience inhabits. Outside of a few shots and one piece of a flashback presented Rashomon-style, we don’t see things through his eyes. The Rashomon sequence only works as this unreliable narration because his point of view isn’t the film’s point of view. And also the hate that people give the scene with shirtless Kylo is really kinda funny because it’s Rian Johnson’s way of absolutely smashing the idea that Kylo is an object of audience gaze over everyone’s heads. Kylo isn’t just shirtless for some cheesecake (as in that one Anakin scene) – the fact that Rey is seeing this is the point of the scene. She is the looker, he is looked upon.
Kylo is extremely looked upon in the movie, like pronouncedly so, and this is not how white men are usually portrayed. It’s such a reversal of expectations that despite Johnson using the most heavy-handed cinematic language he could to put Kylo external to the POV, it looks like it actually confused people.
“What the hell do you mean I’m supposed to be looking at him? Why do you want me to look at him??? I don’t get it, are you obsessed with him? Are you in love with him? Why is he the only thing this movie cares about?”
He’s not! He’s just the only main character who is object and not subject. Rey, Finn, Poe, Rose, Luke, Leia – we are not looking at them as much as we look through them, unless they’re looking at each other. (except Luke at first but I have Too Much to say about that). Kylo is set apart from every other main character in that sense.
*gets out a megaphone, clears throat* PROBABLY BECAUSE HE’S THE ANTAGONIST.
When Johnson implied that Kylo and Rey are two halves of a protagonist, that was a) probably misdirection because the fact that Kylo is the true main villain of the film (not necessarily for the trilogy, but for this one film) is a TWIST and b) not something we should override basic film language for. The movie speaks for itself.
Kylo is framed through a lot of close third person limited perspectives up until the twist. Far more than in TFA. When he’s framed through Rey’s gaze, he seems redeemable. When he’s framed through Snoke’s gaze, he seems soft-hearted and pitiable. Through Luke’s, he’s a victim. These are subjective points of view, and they’re not Rian Johnson’s true POV.
So what is? Well we could wait for the scene where all eyes are on Kylo in the barest open space. Where Kylo gets to be framed from far away in long shots, no longer at the middle (conversational) distance or in intimate (interpersonal) close ups.
That’s the clearest we’re supposed to see him. It comes at the end of the film, end-of-film conventionally being the time to reveal things you were concealing earlier.
We see impotent anger. We see him blinded by his narcissism, believing Luke is there to save him, and not Leia and the Resistance. We see violence. We see hatred. There is still a glimmer of uncertainty and confusion and humanity. But he is no longer as pitiable as he is pathetic. The enemy he rages against is literally an illusion. And Luke spells it out: he is wrong about everything.
But who am I to know better I guess? This movie honestly does make me doubt my film literacy sometimes but opinions I saw from people who aren’t 24/7 fandom gremlins (my family, internet people, THE CRITICS) read the movie more or less like this. I’m pretty sure it’s the text.
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But I do agree with you on how Rian Johnson saw Kylo Ren. He did not come across as remotely likable or redeemable at the end of Last Jedi, just the opposite. He wants power, and she ...wants a family. That's the big difference between them. He had a family and traded it in for power. Killing his father, and then his uncle, so he could get more. Similar in some respects to Dark Vader aka Anakin, who also traded family and love for power. Only to discover how empty and cold power truly was...and unsatisfying.
There's always someone who wants to take if from you or manipulate you into giving it to them. In some respects Vader's arc is more interesting and better drawn than Kylo Ren's in part because Lucas built his back story better -- considering Lucas isn't necessarily stellar at back-story, that's saying something.
Abrams didn't give us any backstory in Force Awakens, just a tease and a wink at it.
Enough to intrigue me and make me impatient for Last Jedi. But Rian sort of...subverts the expectations for it. Rey was just the child of traders, no one important, who happened to be on Tattoni at the same time as everyone else. Ben was a spoiled brat who craved the power his mother and uncle had, and resented his fly-by-night smuggler father, who couldn't quite settle down, no matter how much he wanted to. He felt ignored by his royal family of "heroes" and forgotten. Whether he was or not, isn't really important, he perceived it that way. Luke - ironically, finds himself in Obi Wan's shoes -- and fails Ben just as Obi Wan fails Anakin. He thinks he can teach the boy, but falls into the same traps the Jedi training Anakin had. And Rey, who craves family, in realizing her own is neither important nor wanted her nor exists - does the opposite of what Kylo thinks she'll do with the knowledge, she follows in her adoptive father/mentor Solo's footsteps, and goes with the adopted family of friends -- rejecting the power and psuedo-romance that he offers. She always would -- since he lost all chance with her by killing his father.
Last Jedi from a character and thematic angle actually works well. What didn't work was the execution. They tried to cram three films into one. Also the plot is...well difficult to follow?
I don't think Rian would have given Kylo/Rey shippers what they wanted. They were never getting that. Honestly did these people not see the original three films and the prequels? The pattern in the series kind of goes against a Kylo/Ren relationship. He's always going to die tragically.
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I mostly agree. I think any disagreement really stems from how the character arcs and themes that Johnson had in mind weren't always the best fit.
For example, Finn's arc doesn't take into account his background; if Johnson had included more of that, it would have worked better. His ideas for Rey, Kylo, and Luke were solid enough and also fit Rey's background. Mostly. (He was addressing what the audience wanted in many ways, rather than addressing Rey's wants. But those things were close enough that it worked okay.)
Poe's arc is where things really fall apart for me. I can sort of glimpse what Johnson meant for Rey's arc, even if Kylo as counterpoint is more clear to me. I can perceive the intentions in Finn's arc, even if it doesn't build enough on Finn's history and is clunky storytelling in many places. But with Poe... it's just a mess, and whatever the intention, it looks like they grafted on "hot-headed and misogynistic" to the character played by a Latino man. (Much like they grafted on "used to be a drug runner" in IX. No wonder Oscar Isaac doesn't seem all that hyped about Star Wars now.)
I don't think Rian would have given Kylo/Rey shippers what they wanted. They were never getting that. Honestly did these people not see the original three films and the prequels? The pattern in the series kind of goes against a Kylo/Ren relationship. He's always going to die tragically.
Absolutely. Or maybe live as an unredeemed villain. At least, that was what I thought could happen. Who knows? If anyone had half of a plan in mind from the beginning... but they didn't.
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Finn actually was the most interesting new character. But his story was a bit lost in Last Jedi as well.
This had less to do with characterization and more to do with clunky plot and execution though -- they got lost because the writer was focusing on Leia, Laura Dern's character, Rose, and Rey...everyone else kind of got lost in the midst of that. Which is interesting, considering usually it's the male characters that stand out and the female characters get a bit lost in the shuffle. No wonder the fanboys hated Last Jedi. I get it now. It didn't really make sense to me until now. Sigh. There's a lot of fragile male egos in the Star Wars fandom.
Anyhow, I do kind of agree with you -- the only characters arcs that worked in Last Jedi were Rey, Luke and Kylo Ren -- they are also the only ones that I remember. I can't remember much else from the film now. And I guess that in of itself underlines how poorly both Finn and Poe were handled.
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No, they really didn't. Which is kind of bewildering...why didn't Disney get someone in place who could direct and plot all three movies? They did that with the MCU, why not do it with Star Wars, which actually lends itself to it better than MCU did and has a bigger and broader fandom.
You'd think what happened with the Star Trek reboot series -- would have made it clear Abrams was a poor choice? Abrams would have been fine as a director for one movie, but not to oversee it -- assuming of course that was the plan. It appears they had no plan and were just going to have different writers and directors do each film and hope they fit together somehow?
It's very puzzling.
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This is interesting! Your and others' thoughts. But wait, what are my thoughts?
I dunno if I'm a shipper here. Romance in the SW-verse kind of terrifies me because it's been done so badly on screen. I was okay with Leia and Han, but I don't feel that was exactly centered.
What was centered was that gen family. Luke, Leia, Han, R2, Chewie. That who I always wanted together, no romance.
In these three films, they tried go give me Rey, Finn, Poe, the droids. But the other family was still there. And where does Ben Solo fall into this? He's an antagonist, but he's also Princess Leia's baby boy. We can't ever forget that. He can't ever forget that. So yes, I wanted Kylo-ben do rejoin that family. Very much.
Maybe in Star Wars I 'ship' a family unit. So yes, I wanted Ben to join the family. Ben. And Ben and Rey were connected and that was interesting. So were Ben and Leia. Rey and Finn. I cared about these relationships.
Ben Solo. So much confusion and rage. All that youth and raw power and no one, not one of my beloved three could guide him. They did better with Rey but Rey's parents were partly responsible for that. She was forced to be on her own, relying on no one to guide her. And she did okay on her own. Space orphans often do. (This is not how real life usually goes, but I'll give our orphans the benefit if the doubt.)
I don't think he's pathetic. He's broken. Incomplete. And he can't be fixed. He wanted so do be like Vader (and no one was ever anything like Vader) and he succeeded in going to a point of no return. I was never really that frightened of Kylo Ren. Only frightened of what Leia, Han, and Rey's connection to him would do to them.
It's not the use of Kylo Ren (I love that my autocorrect calls him Kylo Gen, lol) that forces Rey to look at her dark side, it's Palpatine that does that. I could have had a bit more of that exploration. I was a teeny bit afraid of Sith!Rey. But I digress.
Kylo shows us about redemption and how there are some things you cannot be redeemed for no matter how many times you die, save lives, or are died for. Don't know whether either director intended that but that's what I learned from him. How far can you go in your power? What if Rey had left him dead? What would that have done do her and Finn who would never given up on trying to save her and all those who would never give up on trying to saving him?
These questions are Star Wars at its best! Well, in my opinion. ;-)
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I'm trying to figure out what Rey tells Finn about the whole thing. Luckily, so far the different "official" LucasFilm sources are NOT calling Rey and Kylo's "dyad" thingy a soulmate connection. Because I don't wanna deal with that mess. (Of course, I could also just ignore the official sources and write whatever I want. Which might also happen.)
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Why does he frustrate you?
Rey tells Finn he's dead. She's carrying on the Skywalker name. I don't think she mentions her Palpatine connection. She's a believer of self-determination no matter what we think. Poe, Finn, BB, Chewie, they are her family. What else is important to say?
I don't figure Finn for a Jedi, Force-sensitive or not.
I still think of Ben and Rey as siblings. He left his family--willingly--and she wishes she could redeem him, heal him as she did his body, bring him back to the fold. That's connection enough. And he uses what strength he has to bring her back.
That's stronger than any romance in my opinion. What's more intimate than dying and bringing someone back? I actually don't even need fic. Really, what's more compelling than that? Banter while rebuilding a world? Nah. :-)
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2, a subsection of fandom is so focused on him that they invent the subtle shades and nuances that the writing doesn't give him, and act like it's all there onscreen and we're just film idiots who can't properly read a narrative. I'm petty and resentful about it. (Not my best look, to be sure.)
And a big one: 3, the trilogy abandoned a lot of the potential for nuance that could have been used to make Kylo more interesting AND Finn a stronger character as well. Namely, how Kylo was a foil to Finn in episode 7. Finn refuses to kill villagers--the same villagers whose death Kylo just ordered. Kylo turns back and looks intently at Finn during that scene. Later, Kylo knows Finn's alphanumeric designation without being told when they discuss Finn's escape with Poe. Towards the end of the film Kylo stares in anger AT FINN just after killing his own father. And then, at the beginning of that fight in the snowy forest, Kylo screams "Traitor!" at Finn, before they fight over the legacy lightsaber.
Finn was a child with no family or home, who chose the Light. Kylo was a child of loving parents and great privilege, who chose the Dark.
And then there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING between these two characters for the rest of the saga. Even Finn's Force-sensitivity has that problem: hinted-at in 7, ignored entirely in 8, thrown on again in 9, but not in a way that links him to Rey or Kylo Ren... in spite of how it's another way that Finn and Kylo could have been narrative foils.
I don't figure Finn for a Jedi, Force-sensitive or not.
Mhmm. If I write anything, it's going to include how the Force, and Force-abilities, are different in different people. (As much as I like the idea of Finn with a light saber, I kinda wanna focus on how he's a uniter. He's sensitive to emotions. Even in the trio of Poe-Finn-Rey, Finn is the axis. He's the one who can tell the truth to Rey and to Poe and they accept it.
Rey tells Finn he's dead. She's carrying on the Skywalker name. I don't think she mentions her Palpatine connection. She's a believer of self-determination no matter what we think. Poe, Finn, BB, Chewie, they are her family. What else is important to say?
Interesting, thank you! Rey really is laconic. She could go the lone gunslinger route in many ways. Even though I think she has a home with the others, I could imagine her roaming for a long time--staying with her found family for a while, then traveling again. I like the idea of her attracting strays: searching to learn more about the Force, and teaching others who are Force-sensitive. A wandering teacher.
Maybe someday she'll settle down and have a school, but that's a ways off still.
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Fandom made up what canon didn't give them? Whether it made sense or not? What?! ;-)
One thing to face is no matter who wrote the canon Finn was never gonna get more attention than Rey, by the writers. Heck, I feel even Finn knows that. He's okay letting her take center stage. So I'm okay with it. Rey becomes the foil for Kylo Gen. Rey becomes a lot to him.
No, no school! No more training Jedis! I just don't think they are good at it. Broom-boy is way better off on his own.
OT: Did I ever tell you the actor who portrayed Finn was at the screening I saw in NYC of Episode 7 on opening night? He came to the front afterward and we all cheered for him even though we barely knew him at that point. I remember his British accent throwing me off and hoping we had been a good audience since he'd been there watching the whole time! This is why it is sometimes good to go on opening night. :-) You never know who might be there!
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After episode VII I tracked down his first "big break" - a monster movie called Attack the Block. It was well-done; I don't really like monster/alien movies, but I enjoyed this one, even though some elements took me by surprise early on. (Those things get resolved later.)
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Okay, I've had a few thoughts about this. For the most part I agree: Broom-boy can learn what to do with his Force-abilities, for better or worse, on his own. But there's a very tiny category of young Force-users who could be a danger to others, and whose families aren't equiped to deal with that. Imagine if young Rey seeing her parents leave had had access to the powers she learned later: she could have blown up a ship then. A young child with the ability to do Jedi mind tricks could wreak havoc on a whole community. (There's a short story by Ray Bradbury about something similar... at least, I think that was the author. No matter, though.)
Anyway! I don't know that Rey needs to be the person to take charge of a group of potentially dangerous children. I don't think that "the Jedi way*" is necessarily a good fit for those children, either. It certainly wasn't for Anakin. But I do think that something should be available for those very few children, to protect both others and them. Protecting others for the obvious dangers, protecting the children themselves because they could be desirable as weapons to the wrong people.
*The Jedi have this weird role in the films. My analogy is that they're like the Knights Templar: both a religious and military order. Anakin didn't need to be a space monk soldier; he needed connections, not "voluntary" priestly celibacy. And coming from a pro-Anakin point of view: what were his options as a child? He was freed, but his mother wasn't; he was still a child. The Jedi were the only group available, and even they didn't really want him; Qui-Gon did, and Obi-Wan took over to honor his mentor. But poor Anakin was in an impossible situation.
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I will be forever disappointed that this wasn't a cohesive trilogy but there are moments that I love.
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Yeah, I'm pushing myself to focus on the parts that I like as well--reasons why I'm glad the sequel trilogy exists, even if it's also a mess.