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I've been on LJ on a post with no name

This would appear to be a TV post. It jumps all over the place, though.

ABC may not air the final episodes of Pushing Daisies?!?!
::mentally throws rotten fruit at ABC::

So I was watching more of Flight of the Conchords the other night.
1.07 'Drive By' has the fruit seller with prejudice against New Zealanders. It was reasonably amusing--I particularly liked the knife stuck into the door with the piece of kiwi fruit attached. The song "Albi the Racist Dragon" was just... weirdly funny, and I liked "Leggy Blonde." "Mutha Uckas"--annoying.

1.08 'Girlfriends.' Flipping racism to be against the two white guys in the previous episode worked for me as a source for comedy. Having the woman be the sexual predator rather than the man in this episode just made me uncomfortable. Apparently the sympathy button (for the character being taken advantage of) works rather too well for me, whether it's a woman or man. Though the song "Foux da Fa Fa" almost makes up for all of it because it's gloriously wonderful. "A Kiss Is Not a Contract" is pretty cool, too.

BSG stuff: I was commenting in

prolix_allie's LJ about Leoben. Here's some of that (slightly modified to make sense)--and I'd love to read anyone else's thoughts about it.

I kind of resented the show for making it canon that all of the Twos are obsessed with Kara, because to me that takes away another piece of individuality*. At the same time, though, maybe they all learn from their collective experiences and that helped push them toward siding with the other 'rebel' cylons.

Referencing Kara's captivity with a Two on New Caprica, Alllie mentioned the idea that she couldn't imagine Leoben putting her into a breeding Farm--not because of it being immoral, but because "he seems attracted to her force of will even while he wishes it weren't quite so forceful."

What I wrote back: if Kara is Destiny Girl, then anything he does against her will runs the risk of changing that. Or maybe he really did evolve--he was presumably a willing participant in the 'love all the humans (to death)' experiment. I'm really glad the show didn't go there, though--the Farm was quite enough for me, thanks.

So what do you think? Does the fact that all the Twos are obsessed with Kara make them 'less' in some way than the cylons who have become more individualized? Do we need to redefine what it means to be a person (I'm deliberately not using the word human)? Where does free will fit in, if they all feel the same way? If they can't download, can they still share experiences like before, or will they now have to develop individually?

* also, it totally ruins this crackfic idea I had...

~~Hopefully some of that made sense.~~ I don't think that made any sense. Too bad! I was cutting/pasting/typing as fast as my little fingers could work. And now: back to grading papers. I'm desperately behind.

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she couldn't imagine Leoben putting Leoben into a breeding Farm

I suppose the question is, would he even be viable with other cylon women?

~~that is an awesome typo~~

I always wondered if Simon could have hooked her up to a machine. The Six in the hospital questions his dedication, and sure, she killed him, but a part of me suspects that Kara Thrace is a catalyst to individuality, if only by the very nature of her interactions.

She's something different and dynamic, and they can't quite predict where she'll go--

But the Twos are individual, too. While they might all have supported one another, I suspect it's a bit like the Eights: individuals once given the chance, but they close ranks otherwise (Athena and Boomer are both exceptions, and they've had their own reasons. What might have happened to a Two trapped on a battlestar, or one who never knew what he was until he'd shot someone he loved?)

~~that is an awesome typo~~

Ahahahaha! ::fixes::

a part of me suspects that Kara Thrace is a catalyst to individuality, if only by the very nature of her interactions.

I'd actually say that any interaction with humans causes change in the cylons. Wasn't it Cavil who said something about the humans being a 'taint' on cylon nature? (Or maybe I wrote that in a fic. Huh. I don't even remember now.)

What might have happened to a Two trapped on a battlestar, or one who never knew what he was until he'd shot someone he loved?

Ack, now I'm all worried over sleeper Twos shooting people. Are there any sleeper cylons left, I wonder? But a Two who's never been around humans, yeah--if they didn't band together most of the time, an isolated Two might be more inclined to agree with the Ones, Fours and Fives.

Ever since Eighthena mentioned to Helo that she'd looked at Athena's memories, I've wondered how much they (cylons in general, Twos specifically... whatever) purposely share with each other. So maybe the Two on the basestar would be evolving at slower rate than his counterparts mixing with humans, but he's still learning from what they experience.

D'Anna said it, to Caprica and Boomer--they're tainted by their experiences with humans. In Downloaded (it's a good one to listen to as an mp3)

I think Lizbeth came up with the theory that the Twos all share a lot more than other Cylons. Like, the Eights are probably closest (and Threes are hard to tell with, as we only ever see one or two) to Twos in lack of individuality--but the Ones, Fours and Fives aren't trying to be individuals, while the others seem to feel the distinct lack of it.

If we AU the show and Leoben shoots Adama, does a tree fall in the woods?

D'Anna said it, to Caprica and Boomer--they're tainted by their experiences with humans.

Oh, yay, I'm not completely delusional.

but the Ones, Fours and Fives aren't trying to be individuals, while the others seem to feel the distinct lack of it.

I like this idea.

If we AU the show and Leoben shoots Adama, does a tree fall in the woods?

So how did Leoben get into CIC in the first place?
y'know, it's comments like this that ~~make me write weird fic~~ get me into trouble. :)

Nope. And Cavil may have said it as well, probably circa New Caprica.

He was Racetrack's ECO when she went to blow up the baseship, and he went out to find out wtf was up with the nuke and then discovered a lot of naked Leobens and ran back inside with their "God has a plan for us, Leoben. It's ok, we understand." echoing in his ears.

Racetrack thinks he's a little buggy, honestly. Great with the numbers, but a lousy conversationalist. And Maggie thought Hamish sucked at talking.

*snickers*
I can't quite imagine Racetrack with Leoben as ECO. Because I think she'd have to hurt him bad once he started off on yet another stream speech.

Temporary ECO! Are you really going to make me have to write this? Her normal one, Crashdown, was stuck on Kobol, remember? And she'd been stuck on the G due to rotational schedules. And Kara stole the shiny raider, so Racetrack had to go.

a part of me suspects that Kara Thrace is a catalyst to individuality, if only by the very nature of her interactions.

She's their angel! Um, if I'm right about one of my theories for twice.

Angel for the cylons... interesting theory!
you should write a post about it! unless you already did, in which case, ignore my ramblings--I'll blame it on grading papers.

um, yes, that was me. To expand a bit, the other models think the Twos are a bit bonkers because their priorities are askew to the rest of the collective - they're capable of collective action, but they have this wacky interest in thinking the Hybrids can prophesy. So, because nobody else takes them seriously, the Twos kind of have no one else but each other to understand. They're sort of their own collective within a collective. I suppose all of them are, in a sense, but the Twos seem to have their own agenda.

And in pursuit of that agenda they need to be able to share information. Each hybrid probably produces different gibberish, so I like the idea that they pool their knowledge to try to understand what she's saying. With the Eights it seems to be a matter of choice to access other individual's memories (and that may only be possible at download or special set-ups like Boomer's sleeper role, but I don't know). But with the Twos, as each one learns something connected to their interests, he puts it in the Twos' datastream, so they all know about it. So while I think yes, they all know and agree with the deal about Kara (though I'm less certain that New Caprica Leoben didn't go off the reservation in his zealousness), I'm less certain they share everything, and more that they update everyone with things that are important.

So - gods, am I even answering your question anymore? I've been interrupted like four times and I'm just blathering on - anyway, I agree that exposure to humans is loosening them all up (rather to Team Ugly Cylon's chagrin), including the Twos, and mortality is going to speed up that process because it takes away one of the main things that makes them very different culturally.

I think another thing to keep in mind about ALL the cylons is that until exposure to humans they were all living lives that were all but identical. It's not just humans - it was the changes of the infiltrators leaving the ships and going to the planets, it was some of them getting killed for the first time, it was having HEROES who became important by virtue of what one model did. So it's all very poetic that by choosing to destroy humanity, they sowed the seeds of their own death as well.

Well, now I've gotten to read 1) this comment version of Leoben meta and 2) the fic version in part four of 'Labyrinth Gates.' Excellent!

Though I'm mostly just sitting here nodding in agreement, without anything scintillating to say in return. Heh.

WHAAT? No finale episodes of Pushing Daisies??? But why??? *cries*

I don't know!

*joins you in crying*

I'm sure they'll be on the DVD's eventually, even if they're not aired. But it's just heartbreaking to me.

Hi Rose! Gosh, you and I haven't discussed Leoben in so long! Is there new stuff to say about him? Hmm . . . :-)

The show has made it canon that all Twos are obsessed with Kara? I am sorry, if I don't remember where they said that. It seems so long since Leoben was focused on on the show. Hmm. I do remember you not liking Head!not!Leoben (my favorite Leoben). "Who invited you?" was your phrase for him. You did seem to want there to be one Leoben who had that intense focus with Kara. Why did you want only one?

I don't know if they are all obsesssed with Kara or if they are all just predisposed to be obsessed with Kara. Like the Eights are predisposed to want to procreate or the Sixes are predipsoed to like sex. (Though I think all Cylons really like sex. Um, all humans too.:-)) I don't have any confirmation on these two things but I wouldn't be surprised if it was confirmed someday.

I don't believe that the Cylons having individuality plays to their strengths. If the Twos all want Kara, don't they have more chance of success of getting whatever it is they want from her than if it were just one? And I'm not even talking about love or a relationship. Kara is tied to the Cylons' (or Leoben's) destiny somehow. Being obsessed with her is part of his role in the cycle of time to play. At least that's how it seems he had explained it in the past. He's certainly off the grid with her now, but maybe that's his role in this cycle. Maybe it wasn't always so. Maybe this time he's supposed to be off the grid. Who knows?

Do we need to redefine what it means to be a person (I'm deliberately not using the word human)?
I don't think so. Because I don't think they are people or human. And I don't really want them to be. :-) The show has enough people. They are Cylons!

Where does free will fit in, if they all feel the same way?
It didn't fit in. They were just playing their roles. Their destiny was to feel all the same. It was written, just like all women have similiar parts. It's who they were. Now? I do think that the Gaeta-Eight in the webisodes proved there is free will. But each model still has the same basic blueprint as the rest of their model. They are diverging from a single point now but their basic tendencies are the same. Sort of like twins with all the same genetic material but raised apart? Does that make sense?

If they can't download, can they still share experiences like before, or will they now have to develop individually?
They have to develop individually and woe to them! I don't know if they can do it successfully,honestly. Boomer and Caprica tried and look at them. Cavil and D'Anna seem to be the only ones with any true success with being individuals. And Cavil hates it and believes it their strength is in being machines (eh, I might agree with him) and then he boxed D'Anna for her incessant curiosity.

Will the Cylons storm the castle of individuality and win? I don't know! But seeing this way makes it fun to watch and see!

The show has made it canon that all Twos are obsessed with Kara? I am sorry, if I don't remember where they said that.

It was in 'Faith.' Natalie says, "We've tried to be patient about your model's obsession with this woman," to Leoben when he first brings Kara onto the damaged cylon baseship.

So, yes, it's canon. *sigh*

I do remember you not liking Head!not!Leoben (my favorite Leoben). "Who invited you?" was your phrase for him. You did seem to want there to be one Leoben who had that intense focus with Kara. Why did you want only one?

1) He's not Leoben, in my opinion. 2) I'm getting really tired of all these head!characters with agendas, because we never get any explanation of their existence. Head!Leoben and Head!Six have caused some significant changes in their 'protegés' (for lack of a better word), but we don't know what the heck they are! It's frustrating!
hah, writing this reply just after reading

bop_radar's post is probably not the best idea. *laughs*

I don't believe that the Cylons having individuality plays to their strengths.

I don't think they are people or human. And I don't really want them to be. :-) The show has enough people. They are Cylons!

lizardbeth_j talked about cylon culture evolving in her reply to this post, and how exposure to the humans is speeding up the process. This sort of hits on something that I've been thinking for a while--that the main differences between humans and cylons (other than... the cylons being responsible for killing 99.9% of the humans ;-)) are cultural, now that the download/immortality factor has been taken away. If we met someone from the Middle Ages, they might seem as foreign to us, or even more so, than the cylons are in some of their cultural values and ideas.

They have to develop individually and woe to them! I don't know if they can do it successfully,honestly. Boomer and Caprica tried and look at them. Cavil and D'Anna seem to be the only ones with any true success with being individuals. And Cavil hates it and believes it their strength is in being machines (eh, I might agree with him) and then he boxed D'Anna for her incessant curiosity.

Well, if I'm going to argue for the differences between humans and cylon being about culture rather than species, I'd have to say that I see some of them as capable of becoming individualized. And Cavil--I think all the Ones view themselves as machines and superior, so I don't think I'd say that they've individualized particularly well--they're just louder about their model being right. The Sixes and Eights, on the other hand, have shown several individual models with many differences from their twin sisters. (D'Anna... I'm not sure what I think about her.)

Edited 2009-01-10 02:48 (UTC)

This sort of hits on something that I've been thinking for a while--that the main differences between humans and cylons (other than... the cylons being responsible for killing 99.9% of the humans ;-)) are cultural, now that the download/immortality factor has been taken away.
Hmm. I guess I'm alone in my idea. I don't think of the Cylons as human. At all. I don't know. I do think they are definitely being changed through contacts with humans. What I respect about aliens is their very alienness. I don't even know if I could assess an alien properly because all my thoughts come from my species-specific perspective.

Maybe if we met earlier versions of ourselves would see them as foreign. Probably. It's an interesting thought. When do humans become human? What makes one human? Who gets to judge when it happens? Of the many things I will always remember about this show, one is how you expressed that Pinocchio wanted to become a real boy. Who decides when someone is really real?

Where is the super-soaker? I've gone all existential, I think. :-) And maybe off topic from your questions. I do think it's a species thing. When Eight jacks into the raptor's systems that is so not a human thing to do. She's got some fancy technology under her skin.

As for being individuals, well I guess I see the similarities among models, rather than their differences. I don't know why. I guess I'm fascinated more with their alienness and former ability to share conciousness, than their quest to become individuals. But I guess that's just me. :-)

Hmm. I guess I'm alone in my idea. I don't think of the Cylons as human. At all. I don't know. I do think they are definitely being changed through contacts with humans. What I respect about aliens is their very alienness. I don't even know if I could assess an alien properly because all my thoughts come from my species-specific perspective.

I've been open to the possibility of them being human (or at least a VERY closely related separate species) for a while, simply because Sharon had a baby with Helo. The (former) science teacher in me can't ignore that it rarely happens that two separate species can successfully reproduce. Plus the fact that the cylons haven't reproduced among themselves (until Caprica/Tigh, anyway) makes it seem like they're hybrids of humanity--because hybrids of two species (horses + donkeys = mules, for example) are almost always sterile. So my brain ran away with these ideas ages ago and started thinking of the cylons as being enough like humans for me to accept them.

Then of course they made ~~two~~ four humans I already liked into cylons, which increased my acceptance. But I do think that 1) the cultural barriers (downloading, sharing information) are VAST and 2) the well-deserved anger is a good reason for the fleet not to co-exist with the cylons. I'm guessing the show will take us that direction, though. Part of me wants that and another part of me doesn't. *shrugs*

Maybe if we met earlier versions of ourselves would see them as foreign. Probably.

Oh, I definitely think so. Someone from the Middle Ages? Or from B.C. China? There's hardly any connection there in some ways. Though looking at Greek plays from BC times, some things like comedy haven't changed all that much. Hm. (At least, certain kinds of comedy. Of course, the versions I know have been translated and adapted, but I think the core ideas are what make them funny now.)

As for being individuals, well I guess I see the similarities among models, rather than their differences. I don't know why. I guess I'm fascinated more with their alienness and former ability to share conciousness, than their quest to become individuals. But I guess that's just me. :-)

The show has only given us glimpses of those things. I wonder how exactly it operates? Can they share consciousness without the gel matrix stuff we see them using in the baseship? If they're kept from sharing their experiences, does it count as part of an evolution toward becoming human?

*uses supersoaker on self, passes it on to you*

Ooh, you were a science teacher! Gosh, I thought about this post for a while and it just makes me want to finish my WIPs. I have so many human-Cylon hybrids in my WIPs it's a shame. I've been fascinated with the idea for years. Remember I once had started an essay on science fiction's fascination with an alien/human hybrid? That WIP is on permanent hiatus now, but I think the fact that I've seen humans uniting and attempting to breed with aliens in so many TV shows and movies that it totally affects my reading of BSG. Someday I will get my totally non-human aliens. But your points are well taken. Humans made them and they used human bodies to 'evolve'. And they have succeed in mating so they are human-like. I just don't like to think that all aliens' natural end point is to become human because that's normal or good or right. I believe in each species' intrinsic right to simply be whoever they are without being judged by our standards.

I don't know if the Cylons are human or not. I honestly think they are still evolving. Humans are still evolving. Who knows where it might end? I also think that whenever two closely related human species tried to exist on Earth, one eventually died out. I'm talking about prehistoric humanoids. Even though they could probably interbreed, I don't know, we sorta always ended up with one species at a time, I think.

I need to finish my WIPs! You have woken me up to do that! This is why I like conversations with you. :-)

Remember I once had started an essay on science fiction's fascination with an alien/human hybrid?

Of course I remember! :-) Oh, you still have your icon, too--the other one with the blonde girl labeled 'allie keys.' (And this one, Seven.)

I just don't like to think that all aliens' natural end point is to become human because that's normal or good or right. I believe in each species' intrinsic right to simply be whoever they are without being judged by our standards.

Not judging the other species by our standards would be hard to do if we're both sentient species... especially if we look the same/very similar. We do it all the time even with other humans--judge them by differences in skin, race, culture, economic status, etc. We go to war over stupid stuff. Sometimes those conflicts never get fully resolved.

I don't know if the Cylons are human or not. I honestly think they are still evolving. Humans are still evolving. Who knows where it might end? I also think that whenever two closely related human species tried to exist on Earth, one eventually died out. I'm talking about prehistoric humanoids. Even though they could probably interbreed, I don't know, we sorta always ended up with one species at a time, I think.

Part of what fascinates me about the cylons is their apparent desire to be human. They (three models, at least) willingly gave up the downloading capacity--one of the things that has made them inherently different from us. It does seem like there's a desire to fit in with the dominant (human) culture... and yet that's the culture they tried to destroy in the mini-series.

I have lots of other thoughts that may well develop into a post about sci-fi books I like that have the theme of humanity. It's not just you being inspired during our conversations!
go work on those fics, you!

I know Allie Keys, don't remind me. *headdesk* But rewatching Taken is like a 20-hour event! Rewatching everything became too much! I'd love it but life she was a-callin' me. :-)

Sometimes the Cylons (especially those three) remind me of children who left home in a huff and now want to come back home, all forgiven. Um, no? :-)

It's funny, you like the theme about humanity. I'm more interested in the aliens and what makes them tick. Hmm. I might get back to my girl, Seven, though. :-)

Ahem. Someone said there would be, um, ~~Lycans?~~ Racetrack?

*giggles* I was going to excuse myself from writing Lycans by saying that it's not a full moon. But ironically enough, it IS a full moon!

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