rose_griffes (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
rose_griffes) wrote2009-05-04 06:13 pm
rose_griffes) wrote2009-05-04 06:13 pm
Entry tags:
I like making polls.
I'm about to dive back into work-related stuff, but I have thoughts on an important subject: me. (heh)
You know what I didn't do at church yesterday or at work today? Think about writing fic. It was such a relief. The two post-finale fics I've written just ate at me until I finished them. I'm never believing the muse again when she says something will be 'fun' to write. Gah! It's been a long time since a story (stories) bugged me that hard to be written. Over twelve thousand words in just over a month. That's almost as much in word total as all the fic that I cross-posted anywhere last year. I'm not counting ficlets and such.
I'm totally counting these two fics as my finale meta. In other words, don't expect an actual post all about why I didn't hate the finale anytime soon. Or maybe ever.
Speaking of that... season 4.5 in general has really put a damper on my fic appreciation. I'm not sure how to pinpoint all of it, but something about having characters officially end has made me enjoy fic about them less. Poor Gaeta--I've not been keeping up with stories about him at all. I've still been reading Sam fics (or more specifically, Kara/Sam fics, since I haven't seen any dealing with just Sam) but not liking them as well.
Same applies to Kara, actually. *sigh*
Possibly I'll just have to write my own fic about these characters to get past this. Hm.
All of this brings up some interesting thoughts about what is or isn't canon, though. I rarely attempt to write something that deliberately goes against what the show has established. Sometimes my fic may speculate on what comes next, but I try to keep it within the universe we know. But my definition of canon is apparently a lot more restrictive than other people's.
Though when the canon idea is, in my opinion, inherently dumb, I have no problem ignoring it. Hello, human/cylon babies (not made out of love)! Welcome to Earth!
For me canon is what was on the show the first time an episode airs. Period. No webisodes, no extended DVD versions of the episode or deleted scenes. No commentary from the producers.
I'm not sure how much of this is me being some weird sort of show purist (is that even possible?) and how much is that I didn't even know about most of these things until well into season three. (Well... I knew about whatever deleted scenes were on the season one and two discs, as well as commentaries, but they were just novelties.) I didn't know that there were pre-season three webisodes that, as a dutiful fan, I should have gone online and watched. When I finally did watch them, they bored me. The only reason I persisted was because I was trying to write fic about a minor character (Jean Barolay) and was willing to take any character development I could get.
I didn't watch whatever 'Razor' minisodes there were and the only reason I finally watched the season 4.5 webisodes is because I was considering writing 'Racetrack and Gaeta are werewolves' fic and wanted to see if what happened there in terms of character development would contradict any of my ideas. (It's the fault of those Underworld movie ads that everyone kept referencing in their posts about the webisodes. Lycans! I may still write that story someday; I kept my notes.)
Oh, and RDM has possibly the most annoying episode commentaries ever; it's enough to make me want to disregard anything he says just because I don't want to have to listen to it.
And since I've blathered on about this long enough, here. Tell me your view.
[Poll #1394916]
You know what I didn't do at church yesterday or at work today? Think about writing fic. It was such a relief. The two post-finale fics I've written just ate at me until I finished them. I'm never believing the muse again when she says something will be 'fun' to write. Gah! It's been a long time since a story (stories) bugged me that hard to be written. Over twelve thousand words in just over a month. That's almost as much in word total as all the fic that I cross-posted anywhere last year. I'm not counting ficlets and such.
I'm totally counting these two fics as my finale meta. In other words, don't expect an actual post all about why I didn't hate the finale anytime soon. Or maybe ever.
Speaking of that... season 4.5 in general has really put a damper on my fic appreciation. I'm not sure how to pinpoint all of it, but something about having characters officially end has made me enjoy fic about them less. Poor Gaeta--I've not been keeping up with stories about him at all. I've still been reading Sam fics (or more specifically, Kara/Sam fics, since I haven't seen any dealing with just Sam) but not liking them as well.
Same applies to Kara, actually. *sigh*
Possibly I'll just have to write my own fic about these characters to get past this. Hm.
All of this brings up some interesting thoughts about what is or isn't canon, though. I rarely attempt to write something that deliberately goes against what the show has established. Sometimes my fic may speculate on what comes next, but I try to keep it within the universe we know. But my definition of canon is apparently a lot more restrictive than other people's.
Though when the canon idea is, in my opinion, inherently dumb, I have no problem ignoring it. Hello, human/cylon babies (not made out of love)! Welcome to Earth!
For me canon is what was on the show the first time an episode airs. Period. No webisodes, no extended DVD versions of the episode or deleted scenes. No commentary from the producers.
I'm not sure how much of this is me being some weird sort of show purist (is that even possible?) and how much is that I didn't even know about most of these things until well into season three. (Well... I knew about whatever deleted scenes were on the season one and two discs, as well as commentaries, but they were just novelties.) I didn't know that there were pre-season three webisodes that, as a dutiful fan, I should have gone online and watched. When I finally did watch them, they bored me. The only reason I persisted was because I was trying to write fic about a minor character (Jean Barolay) and was willing to take any character development I could get.
I didn't watch whatever 'Razor' minisodes there were and the only reason I finally watched the season 4.5 webisodes is because I was considering writing 'Racetrack and Gaeta are werewolves' fic and wanted to see if what happened there in terms of character development would contradict any of my ideas. (It's the fault of those Underworld movie ads that everyone kept referencing in their posts about the webisodes. Lycans! I may still write that story someday; I kept my notes.)
Oh, and RDM has possibly the most annoying episode commentaries ever; it's enough to make me want to disregard anything he says just because I don't want to have to listen to it.
And since I've blathered on about this long enough, here. Tell me your view.
[Poll #1394916]
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But I don't give a frak what any of the producers SAY about the canon. If it's not shown/filmed, it's not canon.
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*nods frantically* Yes to that.
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...which is why I don't listen to them.
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As far as canon and fan fic, I have to kind of laugh at people worrying about going against canon in fan fic. Fan fic is not canon at all. I have never liked the term AU because its ridiculous. Unless you write a transcript of an episode, its AU. It may follow canon-esque themes but it is AU because it didn't happen on the show. But that's just me. :)
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Yeah, this is a very good point. I guess my thought is that I'm looking for what's going to be commonly accepted (for the reader) as a starting point for characters and actions. But yes, it's NOT the show.
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Aww, that's too bad. I gobbled up every word or your Settlement but I can continue to discuss the finale forever. Because I'm totally and utterly confused. Still. Other peoples' thoughts have really helped me.
Your posts make me so thinky and long-winded! Here goes:
For me canon is what was on the show the first time an episode airs. Period. No webisodes, no extended DVD versions of the episode or deleted scenes. No commentary from the producers.
Why? Are you not confused? I feel so . . . thick sometimes. I need those extras sometimes to explain stuff. I love hearing your take on what Earth II might have been like. Why wouldn't I want to hear the show creator's intentions too? There are things I couldn't have known, couldn't have confirmed without extras. Like what Baltar whispered into Felix's ear (though that was totally retconned). Or what Felix's sexuality was (thought that's still debated between bi and gay). I like to know what an author intended. It surprises me because I thought you did too. You love author DVD commentaries more than anyone I know.
I loved Felix and canon gave him such little attention. I was thrilled with the Face of the Enemy webisodes. And yes, the Resistance ones were where I learned to love Jean Barolay. (Other people don't even remember Jean! Their loss. :-)) I consider them backstory. They're canon to me. Podcasts and deleted scenes? I don't know. Like you say, I had no problem incorporating season 1 and 2 deleted scenes into canon. But after that well, I decided once I incorporated season 1 and 2 deleted scenes, precedent had been set. I'm an all or nothing person. I accept all the deleted scenes or none. I went with all. Kara's suicide attempt too. I know. I don't like it but if they filmed it, they intended something. Can't always fit everything in.
I actually don't know what to do with the finale. It doesn't feel completely true or right to me. But there it is on screen. I haven't fully accepted it, though. Maybe someday. Maybe not. So that's a bit crazy. There is a canon story I'm finding difficult to accept. Or maybe I accept it but will never like it. I truly don't know. So if you are a purist, I don't know what the heck that makes me!
whatever the producer's significant other says on forums
Hee! I like Mrs. Ron ! I wish that her comments were canon sometimes. Seriously. Women do not moan and groan during sexual dreams! No, no, and no.
Here's a question, if you read DVD commentary from a fic writer do you add that to the story you originally read, or does that story remain 'pure' for you? If the story remains pure, then why read the extras at all?
(Just so you know, I will save room in my personal canon for Racetrack and Felix being werewolves. That fic may never get published but it's a funny enough idea to work for me. :-)
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It's not that I'm not interested (okay, if it's RDM, I'm probably not interested, but that's just the irritation factor). It's information that I don't feel like I have to acknowledge if it doesn't work with what I want to do. If it does mesh, great! If not, I don't have any compulsion to include it for the sake of being canon-compliant because it's not what I view as canon. (Though
I like to know what an author intended. It surprises me because I thought you did too. You love author DVD commentaries more than anyone I know.
Again, I think it's the source. RDM irritates me. Other fanfic writers are generally awesome! And since I'm interested in writing, but not so interested in actually creating a TV show...
I liked hearing most of Joss Whedon's commentaries on the Buffy DVD's. Since I've never had interest in writing Buffy-fic, the question of canon in that fandom hasn't been an issue. Though from what I recall, Whedon's shows generally matched what he stated as his goals in the commentaries. There were times when he didn't have enough time in an episode to address everything he wanted, but I don't remember him saying things about his own 'authorial' intent that I thought didn't match the episode. Of course, he may just be better at being tactful about his own creations. Or more egotistical.
I loved Felix and canon gave him such little attention. I was thrilled with the Face of the Enemy webisodes. And yes, the Resistance ones were where I learned to love Jean Barolay. (Other people don't even remember Jean! Their loss. :-)) I consider them backstory. They're canon to me.
The webisodes fit into that same category of 'if they're useful, fine and if not, I'll ignore them' for me. But I didn't really find them to be an enjoyable experience for me. Maybe because I don't like 'snacks' when it comes to TV shows? (Sort of fits that whole lack of enjoyment of so many fanvids, possibly?)
I'm an all or nothing person. I accept all the deleted scenes or none. I went with all. Kara's suicide attempt too. I know. I don't like it but if they filmed it, they intended something. Can't always fit everything in.
Heh. I'm all or nothing too, except that my answer was nothing. :)
Hee! I like Mrs. Ron ! I wish that her comments were canon sometimes. Seriously. Women do not moan and groan during sexual dreams! No, no, and no.
You and me both. Oh, Ron... listen to your wife.
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After I figure out 'what happened' or what I think I've seen, then I can write if I want. As for what I use for fic, I can use anything. I'm AU girl. I sometimes disregard established canon altogether. I started reading and writing fic to see what didn't happen on screen. Anything else bores me. I like film and seeing things in live action. Even the worst BSG scene lives for me in a way the same scene can't for me on paper.
We've discussed this before but your stories work so well for me because they didn't happen onscreen at all. That's the beauty of Prophecy and Settlement. That's why they are interesting to me because they are full of details that were never explained. Details that will never be explained. That's me. I always want more show. From your fic, from the podcasts, just more, more, more. I really still do love this show.
And I am interested in television and how movies are made. That's why I vid. Live action is so fascinating. And I get scared of making writing DVD commentary about my stories. How I write still feels mysterious to me and I don't want to analyze it too much and become too self-aware of it. Oh, how we differ. :-)
Buffy was a cool show to me. I wasn't in fandom and I wasn't writing and I didn't know anything. No spoilers, no interviews, nothing. I still don't anything other than what I saw on screen. It was pure uncriticized viewing enjoyment. :-) Just me and the screen. I miss that sometimes. I put so many of the shows I watch currently under such scrutiny. It used to be nice to simply watch. But BSG may have ruined me for that. Not necessarily a bad thing, either. Just I'm a different kind of viewer now.
Oh, Ron... listen to your wife.
She tried with Kara's ending. I give her kudos for that. She knew.
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Huh. I just don't generally second-guess myself about the meaning of the show that's broadcast, once I've spent a few days 'digesting' it. I do like to read thougtful commentaries from other viewers but once I've formulated my general understanding and reaction, I don't often change it. I might wish for it to be different, but it is what it is.
As for what I use for fic, I can use anything. I'm AU girl. I sometimes disregard established canon altogether. I started reading and writing fic to see what didn't happen on screen. Anything else bores me.
I like trying to make what I write fit into the show itself--most of the time, anyway. They just didn't have time to make that episode about Jean and Leoben on Caprica and about Trina finding the C-Bucs and getting captured! (I know, making up background for minor characters or inventing original characters doesn't seem much like 'canon' but I like telling myself that what I write matches what's on the show.)
And I am interested in television and how movies are made. That's why I vid. Live action is so fascinating.
I'm interested, but not TOO interested, if that makes sense. But that's probably why only one vid-bunny ever bit hard enough for me to actually contemplate making a vid (and then I chased it away, 'cause I don't have time for another hobby like that!).
And I get scared of making writing DVD commentary about my stories. How I write still feels mysterious to me and I don't want to analyze it too much and become too self-aware of it.
Heh. I have to stop myself, because it's frequently very tempting to make commentaries on my own stories...
*whistles 'You're So Vain'*
I miss that sometimes. I put so many of the shows I watch currently under such scrutiny. It used to be nice to simply watch. But BSG may have ruined me for that. Not necessarily a bad thing, either. Just I'm a different kind of viewer now.
Having bought five seasons of Buffy (out of seven) and all five seasons of Angel, I can say that I'm more aware of some aspects of TV-making than I was before I watched/listened to the commentaries on the discs. I do sort of miss that level of un-awareness sometimes. Thank goodness Joss Whedon didn't do commentaries on more episodes. Because if they're available I can't resist them. (Uh, I believe I listened to ALL of the commentaries on the Lord of the Rings discs... there were a LOT of different commentaries available, too. Producers, actors, special effects and wardrobe, and more.)
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I don't usually, either. What I see is what I see. But when the storyteller doesn't do a great job and I'm confused, well that's what I see. Confusion. That's what eps like Daybreak 2 and even No Exit were for me. My meaning was, "Whaaa?" :-) That's why I went looking for answers outside of the screen. But you're right, my view hasn't changed much. I'm still at "Whaaa?"
They just didn't have time to make that episode about Jean and Leoben on Caprica and about Trina finding the C-Bucs and getting captured!
Exactly! And they didn't have time to include the deleted scenes, either! Yay, more show! Fanfic, deleted scenes, I'll take what I can get!
I have to stop myself, because it's frequently very tempting to make commentaries on my own stories...
You'll kill the mystery!! But of course, I'll still read it.
I listened to ALL of the commentaries on the Lord of the Rings discs... there were a LOT of different commentaries available, too. Producers, actors, special effects and wardrobe, and more.)
Me too! It was all so beautifully done that you had to watch it all. Even though the extended versions were like four hours long. And that was just the movie alone! I spent a few days on each of those DVDs. Just to watch them build The Shire or Eowyn's castle was lovely. :-)
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Hee! That's my compulsion with real DVD commentaries! I have to listen to them, even though I sort of don't want to know!
Me too! It was all so beautifully done that you had to watch it all. Even though the extended versions were like four hours long. And that was just the movie alone! I spent a few days on each of those DVDs. Just to watch them build The Shire or Eowyn's castle was lovely. :-)
I'm glad it wasn't just me. You could spend a week watching those things...
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Here's a question, if you read DVD commentary from a fic writer do you add that to the story you originally read, or does that story remain 'pure' for you? If the story remains pure, then why read the extras at all?
Um... so far it hasn't been an issue. The fic commentaries I've read have added to my enjoyment and given me further insight, but I can't recall any revelations that were not hinted at in the story itself. Of course, text is a very different experience than a TV show. And I'm not writing fanfic based on their fanfic, so I don't have to worry about what's canon or not. Plus I can focus on what it teaches me about writing as well as what it adds to the story.
I don't have that desire to learn about the craft of making a TV show. I actually sort of prefer a bit of mystery to it. Sometimes Whedon's commentaries were so specific about the craft of filming and so forth that it actually interfered a bit with the sheer enjoyment of the show because I was paying attention to camera angles and shots rather than to the effect they were supposed to give to the viewer.
This just goes along with a fundamental difference in what I like about TV versus what I like about reading and writing. Possibly I'll have to think about this some more before I say anything else, just to make up my own mind on what my thoughts are!
I actually don't know what to do with the finale. It doesn't feel completely true or right to me. But there it is on screen. I haven't fully accepted it, though. Maybe someday. Maybe not. So that's a bit crazy. There is a canon story I'm finding difficult to accept. Or maybe I accept it but will never like it. I truly don't know. So if you are a purist, I don't know what the heck that makes me!
Aw... I don't suppose you have to like it. Though it's sad to think that it ended on a bad note for you, you're not the only one saying so. I had fun reading the AU ending fics, but I also really wanted to write 'Settlement' and 'Generations' (as canon-compliant as I felt like making them) to wrestle with my own feelings about the finale. (General conclusion--it really is a sad ending, having them on Earth that long ago. But they did at least make it to a planet--something I really wanted--and some part of them lived on. And I like to think that some of them relished the challenge of that hard life, even as they might have wished for just one more milkshake and hot bath.)
(Just so you know, I will save room in my personal canon for Racetrack and Felix being werewolves. That fic may never get published but it's a funny enough idea to work for me. :-)
Hee! I'll consider it motivation.
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Of course, text is a very different experience than a TV show. And I'm not writing fanfic based on their fanfic, so I don't have to worry about what's canon or not.
Interesting. You seem mostly worried about canon for fic writing. I worry about canon simply as, did I get what the writer meant? At all? Just sheer comprehension. Sometimes a commentary for an episode or a movie illuminates the work in a totally different way for me. And sometimes commentaries (even on movie DVDs) are simply annoying.
But they did at least make it to a planet--something I really wanted--and some part of them lived on.
Heh. That's true. And you know I always disliked the planets. :-) I don't mind them in fic. I prefer them there. But the show was called Battlestar Galactica and that's where I wanted them to be and stay or die. We live on a planet. That's not so new to me. But living on a space battleship! That never, ever got old for me. I did love Kobol. :-) But that was more because of mythology and because it was so pretty and green. :-)
You are a really skillful writer, Rose! I loved the planets in your fic. (I honestly really dislike Cylon-Occupied Caprica). But I think it's the characters too. I really liked your Jean and Trina. I think I could have read about them on Mars and been happy. :-) But for the show? I missed the viper fights in the end. I missed what was different and exciting and the technological advances that we don't have yet in our world.
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Maybe there isn't one 'canon' that everyone will agree upon. I'm liking that thought. RDM has his story and I have mine. I still like to know what he intended. Especially when he loses me. He had interesting ideas, the execution was just so poor sometimes.
I'm not trying to excuse bad writing of which there was plenty in BSG this year. But even when a story is told well, maybe canon isn't static. That's the fun part. We can each see things our own way.
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But I'd never consider something stated in a commentary or interview to be canon if it's not also on the screen. As a writer, I feel that my story is only what's on the page and what the reader takes out of it. If they aren't reading what I thought I was writing, then I'm doing something wrong. And just because I say Kara was totally pining for Socinus the whole time, if Kara's eternal love for Socinus wasn't on the page (or the screen) then it's not anybody's canon.
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Realizing there are 'pick and choose' canon interpretations out there, I now feel less worried about the whole issue! Heh.
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However, because I am finicky and neurotic (even though I flout canon and make deliberate AUs all the time), I still feel somewhat obliged to know what that other material says, so at least that way I can make an informed choice on what to accept or discard. But I don't assume people are going to know it, in the same way I assume people know what happened in, say, Eye of Jupiter.
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Yeah, this. I can like or dislike certain aspects of the show but unless my goal is to purposely change that, I like to make what I write match up with what the general viewer has seen.
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But, otoh, I don't count producer/actor comments unless they back up what I already believe. (And don't even get me started about their significant others wanking about their brilliance on the forums.) Well, I don't consider my opinions "canon" either, I guess! *g* Or just as my personal canon, obviously? Like, is that what the whole furor over canon is? Is it something we expect everyone else to agree on? Heh, no wonder it gets so contentious.
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I like the Kara/Sam stuff, but I think artistically the aired UB is far superior, so I... take what I like and leave the rest?
Shameful secret: I used to really like the podcasts until this season. I think it was Terry Moore spending half the DFMS 'cast shrewing about how the Nicky retcon was like a work of Great Art, like an Abstract Painting, and the people on the forums just didn't get it that finally broke me.
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In the longer version, they aren't even there. Also, there's the adorable bit where Kara and Dee wander off to get drunk together. Add in the extra sex and kisses between Kara and Sam, and I'm happier with it.
Even if I sort of hate the Dee and Lee scene. Sigh.
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But, otoh, I don't count producer/actor comments unless they back up what I already believe.
Yeah. Show it to me, don't tell me!
Well, I don't consider my opinions "canon" either, I guess! *g* Or just as my personal canon, obviously? Like, is that what the whole furor over canon is? Is it something we expect everyone else to agree on? Heh, no wonder it gets so contentious.
I like what
eta: doesn't matter at all because we all have our own shows happening in our heads...
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The first run they did has now been blown out of the water. Year Zero was never canon. It's possible Origins is, but I'd take them with a massive grain of salt.
And the rest are awful.
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